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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 4 to 28 of 34. Go back in thread:
Posted by Deneb on June 25, 2006, at 17:56:24
In reply to Re: I got labelled as a troll :-( » Deneb, posted by llrrrpp on June 25, 2006, at 17:30:10
I'm civil when I post to other forums. I just have this way of upsetting people. :-(
I upset people with all the references to death and suicide that I make. Then people are so upset that they become angered even when I write something that doesn't have anything to do with death and suicide. Everything I write then just upsets more people.
I've upset a lot of people here at Babble in the past, mostly with my suicide threats and threats of self harm. (If I wrote this sentence elsewhere, people would get angry. I can't even mention the word "suicide" or else people get upset.) I'm glad the civility rules are what they are. They protect me from people getting angry at me and writing things like, "You're a troll. You play with the emotions of people and take advantage of them."
I'm not a troll because I'm not sitting behind the computer screen laughing at how I hurt people.
I wrote about my breast cancer fears at another site and got labelled as a troll. I wrote the same here but the civility rules protected me.
Deneb*
Posted by llrrrpp on June 25, 2006, at 18:13:04
In reply to Re: I got labelled as a troll :-(, posted by Deneb on June 25, 2006, at 17:56:24
hi Deneb*
I think it's good that we can talk openly on p-babble about things like fear of death and cancer and suicide and self-injury. p-babble helped me figure out when suicidal ideation crosses over a line and how/when to get help. Where else are we going to find support from people who have been there and who aren't going to judge our morality or put nasty labels on us?Having said that, psycho-babble is not going to be like your other relationships. We do have to censor ourselves in real life, and in other contexts. We have to censor ourself on P-babble to stay within civility guidelines. Many people won't understand teh extreme experiences that mental illness affords us. They tend to get upset, judgemental and stop listening to us. This is why I think it's a great idea for you to hang out with people in real life. You will get a feel for practicing empathy in person, and practice for communicating without upsetting people to the degree that the conversation falls apart. It's wonderful to have confidants in real life, but it takes a lot of work (trust and communication) to get a relationship to the stage where you can talk about potentially upsetting topics without your friend or boyfriend getting angry. And some people, no matter how much we hang out with them will never be able to understand things. They just don't have the imagination, or they aren't willing to consider things that fall outside their worldview. But these are the kind of people that you hang out with for other reasons, maybe becuase they make you laugh, or they always invite you someplace fun, or they make you study with them and you get A's. It's important to cultivate all kinds of relationships, not just the relationships that will allow you to bare your innermost hurts and dreams.
Anyways, I'll hang out with you anytime, D*! Maybe next p-babble party we can meet?
-ll
Posted by Deneb on June 25, 2006, at 18:51:33
In reply to Re: I got labelled as a troll :-( *trigger* » Deneb, posted by llrrrpp on June 25, 2006, at 18:13:04
I don't know how much I hurt people when I do certain things. I don't understand it and I don't realize it until they tell me. Even after they tell me I still don't realize the extent of their hurt. I forget about the hurt and continue, only to be told again that I'm upsetting people again.
Then I get upset myself, but it's mostly because I think other people are being mean to me by telling me I'm hurting others. I still don't get how hurt others are. I can think, "Yes, I get it," but I don't think I really truly *get* it.
All I seem to understand are my own hurts. :-(
I read that people with autism are able to learn and show empathy. That gives me some hope.
Deneb*
Posted by rjlockhart on June 25, 2006, at 19:40:32
In reply to I got labelled as a troll :-(, posted by Deneb on June 25, 2006, at 16:44:36
Dont, deneb i have seen your posts on going about how you can improve yourself. That is good!
I do have sometimes problems with interacting with people socially, but i have, well i am still overcoming it. I still feel down about it, but just let, talk about things that happneed, stories, elaborate on them, which you want to talk about.
Just rerember what happened. There is a book called "Making Friends and Influenceing People" by Dale Carnigie, which was written in the 1930's! but it is very good still in today's world. It says take intrest in what people are intrested in and then study about it and then talk. This can be about cars, friends, school, stuff just on your mind.
But first you have to rerember what happened, because hey, i have tried to tell stories about what happened the other day to people and i forgot some really funny details that happened. You got to reremeber that.
Anyways that was someadvice.
Think of yourself as a socializer.
Matt
Posted by llrrrpp on June 25, 2006, at 19:49:08
In reply to Re: I got labelled as a troll :-(, posted by Deneb on June 25, 2006, at 18:51:33
Well, it's really hard to tell how hurt people are, when the only thing you have are little letters on a screen. IRL, you can see their discomfort and emotions in their body language. It's a lot easier. AND- you can see their body language WHILE you're talking, so you can use that to adjust what you're saying.
It's really hard to avoid hurting people. Even if you were completely saccharine sweet, someone could be annoyed. It's not always your fault. Sometimes people are offended, or are sensitive to things that you could never predict, based on "civility" or social convention or what not.
I got into big trouble a few years back with my best friend of 10 years. We grew up together, and were really close. I said something kind of half-joking about how she was so lucky she wouldn't have to wear a bra with this dress she bought. And she completely lost her temper with me. I really did think she was lucky. Sundresses are hard to pull off when you.... I digress. I *really* hurt her feelings. I had no intention to, and yet it still happened. The best you can do (if the relationship is important to you) is to apologize sincerely for hurting people, and try to explain that it was not your intention, and it was an accident, and you'll try not to do it in the future. Sometimes you don't really care about the relationship. It's nice to apologize, but I wouldn't beat myself up over it. Just acknowledge that everyone has their own issues, and their own sensitivities.
I doubt you have autism, since you're so verbal-- but yes, these social conventions can be practiced and learned. and you are smart and clever enough to learn them. It just takes practice. I think Babble is good practice for the real world. I have a lot of problems in certain social circumstances, because I always stress myself out trying to please everyone. I'm good at it, but then I realize that I forgot to have fun at my own party.
oh well...
I'm kinda talkative today.
hope you're kinda readative today?
-ll
Posted by Glydin on June 25, 2006, at 20:36:51
In reply to I got labelled as a troll :-(, posted by Deneb on June 25, 2006, at 16:44:36
The trolls I've noted here at this site have a pattern: they ignite, run, and (I guess) sit back and behold the glory of their ruckus as a nonparticipant. You are a part of this community and have been for a while. I don't think you're a troll - at least not as I define 'em.
If we are at any site for any length of time, things can get uncomfortable from time to time. I think we probably have all posted things that are difficult for someone, in someplace to read.
Posted by Deneb on June 25, 2006, at 20:56:46
In reply to Re: I got labelled as a troll :-(, posted by rjlockhart on June 25, 2006, at 19:40:32
Thanks Matt, for the tips on socializing. I really suck at socializing and making conversation. I never know what to talk about.
"Take interest in what other people are interested in"...that's excellent advice! I don't know why I didn't think of that before. Of course, people like to talk about themselves and what they are interested in. I don't have to talk much about myself at all to participate in a conversation. I'm going to remember these tips for the next Babble party. ;-)
I'll try to remember interesting things that happen to me so I can tell them as a story to people. I have a really bad memory, so many I'll have to write them down.
Deneb*
Posted by Deneb on June 25, 2006, at 21:09:05
In reply to Re: I got labelled as a troll :-( » Deneb, posted by llrrrpp on June 25, 2006, at 19:49:08
You're right llrrrpp, I can't please everyone all the time, it's impossible. But...I can definitely do more right now to prevent people from hating me.
In real life I don't have many problems with people, mostly because I don't interact with people. We don't talk, so we can't get into arguments. I don't say anything so I can't hurt the others' feelings.
Online things get tricky. With my lack of social skills, disinhibition, and lack of physical cues, things can get ugly. Misunderstandings abound.
I think the number one thing that gets me into trouble is my disinhibition online. That combined with my almost constant need for online attention equals trouble. The more upset I am, the more attention I crave and the more provocative my posts become. I have to learn to stop the cycle.
> I doubt you have autism, since you're so verbal
I agree I'm pretty verbal online, but you should have seen me in real life. I was zoned out! I was in my own little world. I barely said anything when we got together. I barely listened as well. I dunno...I wonder sometimes...but you're probably right, I'm probably not autistic.
Deneb*
Posted by Deneb on June 25, 2006, at 21:13:05
In reply to Re: Internet Trolls... » Deneb, posted by Glydin on June 25, 2006, at 20:36:51
I know I'm not a troll, but it takes time for people to realize that.
I get pretty hungry for attention at times and can post really provocative things. I don't intend on upsetting people, but I always do.
When I'm not so upset and wanting attention, I behave more like a normal poster, but it takes time for people to see that side of me.
Deneb*
Posted by llrrrpp on June 25, 2006, at 21:32:14
In reply to Re: I got labelled as a troll :-( » llrrrpp, posted by Deneb on June 25, 2006, at 21:09:05
Just be yourself and be civil. i like you just fine :) you and Buttertart :)
Misunderstandings abound even for people like me who don't have social phobias or (much) social anxiety. Just try your hardest, but don't be afraid to be yourself either, becuase I like Deneb just fine, both when she's professing Bob-Love, and when she's needing a little extra attention because she's scared or hurting.
You mentioned that you were pretty quiet during the APA conference. Yet, you were keeping all of us up to date with your in depth and lively running commentary of events. It was great! You have the talent for communicating, even if it's not in face-to-face communication. I know it's not as comfortable. You're not alone there!
I get really zoned out too. When I was in my deep deep depression, I had a hard time following conversations. The better you listen, the better your memory will be, but you have to be motivated to listen. So? I don't know? start small- take baby steps. It's okay. Not everyone is destined to be a motivational speaker. Some people are just quiet. That's okay too.
You like attention? MEE TOOO!
here's some attention coming your way
(((((hugs for Deneb*)))))
and if you ever want to chat with me, give me a ring :) [but I go to bed pretty early compared with you!]
your friend,
-ll
Posted by Glydin on June 25, 2006, at 21:33:32
In reply to Re: Internet Trolls... » Glydin, posted by Deneb on June 25, 2006, at 21:13:05
> I get pretty hungry for attention at times and can post really provocative things. I don't intend on upsetting people, but I always do.
>~~~ I came to a realization a while back that things that I read here that I might find, uh, uncomfortable or causing a response in me, generally mean it's something I need to look at inside me as to why. So, in some regards it's not always a bad thing. I understand some folks are sensitive on some subjects but I've always looked at it as I'm the reason for my responses and I have to figure that out for me. So long as it's "cool with the rules", I don't think there should be a gripe about THE CONTENT other's postings - keeping in mind, griping and agreeing are two different things.
Posted by Phillipa on June 25, 2006, at 22:20:34
In reply to Re: Internet Trolls... » Deneb, posted by Glydin on June 25, 2006, at 21:33:32
Deneb think positive and maybe you and Matt rj could chat more. Babblemail your E-mails to each other and you can help each other. Love Phillipa
Posted by Dr. Bob on June 26, 2006, at 8:09:10
In reply to Re: I got labelled as a troll :-(, posted by rjlockhart on June 25, 2006, at 19:40:32
> There is a book called "Making Friends and Influenceing People" by Dale Carnigie, which was written in the 1930's! but it is very good still in today's world.
I'd just like to plug the double double quotes feature at this site:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#amazon
The first time anyone refers to a book, movie, or music without using this option, I post this to try to make sure he or she at least knows about it. It's just an option, though, and doesn't *have* to be used. If people *choose* not to use it, I'd be interested why not, but I'd like that redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020918/msgs/7717.html
Thanks!
Bob
Posted by 10derHeart on June 26, 2006, at 9:31:05
In reply to Re: double double quotes » rjlockhart, posted by Dr. Bob on June 26, 2006, at 8:09:10
I was going to post about that yesterday, but then I forgot.
I'd better watch out or I may lose my (self-proclaimed) title of "queen of double-double quotes."
;-)
Posted by Racer on June 26, 2006, at 10:29:38
In reply to Re: I got labelled as a troll :-(, posted by Deneb on June 25, 2006, at 17:56:24
> > I wrote about my breast cancer fears at another site and got labelled as a troll.
>
> Deneb*
>
>Deneb, was this at PC? If so, you know that there's a pattern there of a lot of people jumping on you for nearly everything.
But if you posted your fears of breast cancer at a site for people with breast cancer, you really need to talk to your pdoc about why that might have upset people. The people at those sites HAVE breast cancer. They're in pain, they're frightened, and they're trying to come to terms with the possibility that they will die. If you show up and say you're afraid you have breast cancer, because you had a lump, they may be supportive of you at that point. If you then say that after two mammograms and an ultrasound and a doctor telling you that it's fibrocystic breasts -- they're going to feel pretty outraged. In fact, I have more than a little trouble with all that myself, and you know that I'm not a Deneb-basher.
Sometimes you would do well to remember your audience. In fact, that concept -- "identify your audience, and keep them in mind while you post" -- would go a very long way towards improving your online interactions.
Posted by gardenergirl on June 26, 2006, at 14:59:43
In reply to Re: I got labelled as a troll :-( » Deneb, posted by Racer on June 26, 2006, at 10:29:38
> Deneb, was this at PC? If so, you know that there's a pattern there of a lot of people jumping on you for nearly everything.
Which doesn't mean that you deserve that kind of response, by the way. Just to clarify. Seeing as how I witnessed it and all and then had to let out a big rant about it.
Take care,
gg
Posted by llrrrpp on June 26, 2006, at 15:21:15
In reply to Re: I got labelled as a troll :-( » Racer, posted by gardenergirl on June 26, 2006, at 14:59:43
> > Deneb, was this at PC? If so, you know that there's a pattern there of a lot of people jumping on you for nearly everything.
>
> Which doesn't mean that you deserve that kind of response, by the way. Just to clarify. Seeing as how I witnessed it and all and then had to let out a big rant about it.Deneb* that's TERRIBLE. I'm sorry people hurt you. Don't go to PC if people there don't appreciate you. I don't think it's worth it. Too many cartoons on PC. Takes too much cognitive effort to figure out what's going on. I prefer the calm ivory boards of P-Babble, with the human element of Dr. Bob and the deputies. It feels comfortable here, even when it's uncomfortable (kind of like a squabbling family, if that makes ANY sense?)
here's some more POSITIVE attention for you, cause we all crave to know that someone cares. I care, Deneb*
((((((((((DENEB-Star))))))))))))
your friend,
-ll
Posted by TofuEmmy on June 26, 2006, at 20:00:34
In reply to I got labelled as a troll :-(, posted by Deneb on June 25, 2006, at 16:44:36
I looked and looked for a thread on PC where you say you are worried about cancer and people were mean in return. Maybe it's there, but I just didn't find it. I search on your name and cancer, and breast.
I DID find a thread where you were talking about your love for Dr. Bob and some people WERE awful to you. Am I allowed to say that? Seriously, some were mean.
And I also saw a separate thread where you talk about your fear of cancer, and people were kind. The other thread of yours I saw was about your new hamster, and people were helping you name it.
I DO see how badly you were treated by some there regarding Dr. Bob...this is an old issue around there. It stinks, and I wish people were kinder. But the whole place doesn't stink, and MOST of the posters are kind. It's just the nasty ones we remember. Sometimes I see nastiness here, despite the rules...including some of my posts!
I'm sorry you went through a bad time and I don't mean to diminish your pain. Take care.
Emmy
Posted by Racer on June 26, 2006, at 20:06:40
In reply to Re: I got labelled as a troll :-( » Racer, posted by gardenergirl on June 26, 2006, at 14:59:43
Posted by Deneb on June 26, 2006, at 23:42:53
In reply to Re: I got labelled as a troll :-( » Deneb, posted by Racer on June 26, 2006, at 10:29:38
> Deneb, was this at PC?
No, I posted at the breast cancer site.
I feel bad about upsetting people, because those people are suffering enough already. I think I should stay away from that place, it feeds my obsessions and fears about breast cancer. There are people dying there.
People were upset because I kept mentioning suicide. I mentioned it here too, but people understand here. People there were really supportive until I mentioned my suicidal thoughts.
> Sometimes you would do well to remember your audience. In fact, that concept -- "identify your audience, and keep them in mind while you post" -- would go a very long way towards improving your online interactions.
That's a very good piece of advice. I just wish I had more insight into what different audiences think and feel.
Deneb*
Posted by Deneb on June 26, 2006, at 23:47:28
In reply to Re: I got labelled as a troll :-( » gardenergirl, posted by llrrrpp on June 26, 2006, at 15:21:15
Thanks for the hug llrrrpp.
(((((((((((((llrrrpp)))))))))))))))
I'm more comfortable here because of the civility rules. The safety the rules provide me outweight the danger of blocks.
Deneb*
Posted by TofuEmmy on June 27, 2006, at 5:34:03
In reply to Re: I got labelled as a troll :-( » Racer, posted by Deneb on June 26, 2006, at 23:42:53
I apologize for jumping to conclusions and assuming you were talking about PC. Sometimes I have a hair trigger. Sorry to add to your bad time. Em
Posted by Dinah on June 27, 2006, at 12:01:24
In reply to Re: I got labelled as a troll :-( » Racer, posted by Deneb on June 26, 2006, at 23:42:53
> That's a very good piece of advice. I just wish I had more insight into what different audiences think and feel.
>
> Deneb*
>People tend to give you cues of varying intensity. You just need to be open to them. You don't need to understand why. You just need to understand that it is so.
Of course no one deserves to be treated unkindly. But learning to judge social norms in any given situation is a very useful skill. You'll find it especially so when you go to work, because different places you might work at have different corporate cultures.
A couple of suggestions of things I try to do. Lurk a bit before you post to get a feel for the place. And try to accept how people feel about your posts even if you don't understand it. I don't understand some of the things people find triggering, but I try to be sensitive to the fact that they *do* find it triggering. Then you can adjust your posting style or not, as you see fit. But realize that whatever you do there are consequences. For example, I know that my personal appearance is somewhat outside of community norms, but I accept that because there are reasons that I dreass as I do and those reasons are more important to me. But the consequence is that I know some people are going to judge me negatively. And I live with that consequence.
Posted by Deneb on June 27, 2006, at 23:09:01
In reply to Re: I got labelled as a troll :-( » Deneb, posted by Dinah on June 27, 2006, at 12:01:24
People were really uncivil towards me. First they were nice, but then they turned against me. How can people be like that? Nice, then mean? I think there was a mob mentality. A few people started attacking me, then everyone joined in. Those who supported me did it behind the scenes and didn't speak up.
(Dr. Bob, I'm not talking about anyone here or at PC)
I remember in junior high, this happened to a new girl. I was the only one who befriended her and defended her against those who were bullying her. The girls in my class then turned against me. :-( Then I was the new target. It was a horrible time. I think that's why those who supported me didn't speak up.
Someone who was kind told me that talking about suicidal urges is like talking about one's bowel movements, it's just not acceptable. No one wants to hear how I think about death.
Deneb*
Posted by Dinah on June 27, 2006, at 23:21:25
In reply to Re: I got labelled as a troll :-(, posted by Deneb on June 27, 2006, at 23:09:01
Like I said, no one deserves to be treated badly.
As the kid who seemed to be semi-officially appointed picked upon kid in middle school, I definitely understand.
But assessing community norms is a useful skill anyway.
Could it be that to people facing life being taken away from them by illness and doing everything they can to live, hearing someone willing to take their own life makes them feel angry? Because of what they're going through? Or maybe there are other reasons. I've never been in that position. But is this the breast cancer site you're talking about?
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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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