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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Michael83 on September 29, 2006, at 23:02:13
In reply to Re: Having panic/anxiety attack again, ADVICE? HELP? » Michael83, posted by Phillipa on September 19, 2006, at 22:11:41
"Everyone is entitled to their own beliefs."
That's not what Christians think.
It is however what I said in my post...
"Sorry if this post offends, I truly am sorry. I do not mean to try to take any's belief away from them. If you're happy believing what you believe, good for you, that's all that matters. But me, I found out the truth, but I must say, it's not always easy to live out the truth."
If I offended you I am sorry Phillipa.
I've apologized for offending people every time I've brought this up to anyone.
Funny thing is, no Christian has ever apologized to me for the nights I spent crying. Or the night I thought about killing myself 4 years ago. Or the constant anxiety I live with.
I even prayed one night this past summer and I forgave Jesus, with all my heart, to what he's done to me and so many others. I really forgave him.
But some would tell you that's not enough and I'm still going to hell.
I don't mean any harm, I just want to be comfortable with what I believe.
Posted by Michael83 on September 29, 2006, at 23:02:20
In reply to Re: Having panic/anxiety attack again, ADVICE? HE » Phillipa, posted by Michael83 on September 19, 2006, at 22:27:15
It's one thing to tell me I'm going to hell, that's fine.
But I put others I love ahead of me, so much worst when they say someone I love is going to hell.
Everytime I think of it, I imagine myself telling God, "You can pick on me all you want, that's fine, but don't you dare touch those I love."
Posted by Phillipa on September 29, 2006, at 23:02:23
In reply to Re: Having panic/anxiety....and it's one thing..., posted by Michael83 on September 19, 2006, at 22:30:04
Michael I think it's the opposite and I've offended you. I'm very sorry for that. It seems like you're a very God loving good person to me. Do you take any meds or see a doc or have anyone in real life to talk to. Oh it's hard life if hard. But please don't get down on yourself you're a very special person of God. And so are the ones you love. I think I need to read your original post again. I think I may have misunderstood. Love Phillipa
Posted by Phillipa on September 29, 2006, at 23:02:26
In reply to Re: Having panic/anxiety....and it's one thing... » Michael83, posted by Phillipa on September 19, 2006, at 22:49:24
You know Michael there are many forms of God. Buddisam, Islam, Jediaism, and types. But I really feel the advise on the original post was good advise. Have you seen a pdoc or therapist yet? I think you should. And as the others said in the original post not all meds will make you a zombie. Just take away some of the anxiety. And have you considered calling a crisis line? Somethings some very good people would love to talk to you and help you find the right person to help you. We'll help all we can on babble. I'm so sorry for misinterpreting your thread. Please forgive me. It's my fault. Love Phillipa
Posted by Michael83 on September 29, 2006, at 23:02:29
In reply to Re: Having panic/anxiety....and it's one thing... » Michael83, posted by Phillipa on September 19, 2006, at 22:49:24
>>>>Michael I think it's the opposite and I've offended you. I'm very sorry for that.
I just sense some hostility from your post, and you're one of the nicest people on here who will help anyone, so that worried me. But it was probably just a misunderstanding, no one's fault.
>>>>>It seems like you're a very God loving good person to me.
I consider myself a Deist (one who believes in a god in harmony with science and logic, but who does not operate in mysticism or revealed religion), and I have great love and respect for the universe and it's Creator.
But as a Deist, I do not believe in heaven, Jesus, the Bible, miracles, an afterlife, or anything like that. To believe in any of those things is impossible, the best anyone can do is "hope," and I do hope, but I could never actually believe them. I hope, but just cannot believe, ever.
I love the Deist God. No guessing games, false logic, or contradictions. Everything fits together. Life is given real answers.
But what if I'm wrong? I just feel worried for those I love and myself, that'll we'll be punished for following our logic.
>>>>>I think I need to read your original post again.
Thank you for even reading it the first time, it's nice to know someone is listening. I'm just shaken up tonight after finding out someone I love does not believe. I just don't want them to be punished for believing what they believe.
Posted by Michael83 on September 29, 2006, at 23:02:32
In reply to Re: Having panic/anxiety....and it's one thing..., posted by Phillipa on September 19, 2006, at 23:03:17
Oh, no I don't see any sort of professional help or take meds.
I've come close to seeing someone for this, but by then, my fears usually calm down. And it's been getting much better in the past few months (since a big spike in May).
I'm just going to give it some time. I always get better, it just takes time. Unless anyone knows of a pdoc who knows what happens when you die, I seriously doubt they could help me, but if these problems get worse and persist, I will indeed see one.
I just need to go to sleep, calm down a bit, and things will get better, they always do. Just take a little time. I got it bad, but a LOT of people got it a lot worse than me, so I should run off and act like the world is collapsing.
Posted by Michael83 on September 29, 2006, at 23:02:37
In reply to Re: Having panic/anxiety....and it's one thing... » Phillipa, posted by Michael83 on September 19, 2006, at 23:13:02
"so I should run off and act like the world is collapsing."
Should be "so I SHOULDN'T run off and act like the world is collapsing."
Posted by Michael83 on September 29, 2006, at 23:02:42
In reply to Having panic/anxiety attack again, ADVICE? HELP?, posted by Michael83 on September 19, 2006, at 21:58:06
I thought I was going to take a turn for the worst last night. Wasn't looking good at all.
I'm back on track now though. Whew.
Posted by Phillipa on September 29, 2006, at 23:02:48
In reply to I feel better now..., posted by Michael83 on September 20, 2006, at 11:22:27
Michael glad you're back on track. I know what you mean about dying as I'm much older than you and I fear it greatly. We're just here and who can tell us? And there are a lot of scientific theories on man as evolution. I'm as confused as you. Love Phillipa
Posted by Lindenblüte on September 29, 2006, at 23:02:50
In reply to Re: I feel better now... » Michael83, posted by Phillipa on September 20, 2006, at 19:34:06
Michael, I'm glad you're back on track. That's good news. I just want to warn you that it's probably not a good idea to say blanket statements about what people X believe on psycho-babble.
I think the general theme is to try and treat people like individuals here. I think it's a good piece of advice for life in general, but very difficult in practice. For instance, your love says that she's buddhist, but there are many aspects to buddhist belief and practice. Many different cultures are "buddhist" and many people adopt some things from buddhism and other things from other faiths, philosophies or systems of ethics.
How about getting to know your love a little better. Find out how passionate she is about this buddhism thing, if you're curious. Find out whether she has come to it because she's had problems like you have with the predominant religion of her upbringing? It might be something you have in common. A way to get an interesting conversation started? You seem to have a lot of very interesting, well-developed ideas, and I think you'd be really intriguing to a woman who likes to think about big ideas too.
until then- big dreams are nice too :)
-Li
Posted by Michael83 on September 29, 2006, at 23:02:55
>>>>I just want to warn you that it's probably not a good idea to say blanket statements about what people X believe on psycho-babble.
I'm not saying about the people, but the religion itself. If I did make a blanket statement about people, my fault, I'm sorry it was a mistake.
>>>>>For instance, your love says that she's buddhist, but there are many aspects to buddhist belief and practice. Many different cultures are "buddhist" and many people adopt some things from buddhism and other things from other faiths, philosophies or systems of ethics.
I know that, but the Christian religion dictates that a lack of belief in Jesus will lead to eternal punishment. Some Christians believe different, and that's fine, but the Bible is clear. No Jesus = burn in hell.
I'm not going to change a religion to fit contemporary society. It either works, or it doesn't work. Christianity doesn't work, but I still fear I'm wrong.
>>>>>>>How about getting to know your love a little better. Find out how passionate she is about this buddhism thing, if you're curious. Find out whether she has come to it because she's had problems like you have with the predominant religion of her upbringing? It might be something you have in common.
I haven't talked to her in about 2 years. She was a friend from high school, not a close friend, but I loved her, although she didn't know it.
She was raised Christian and simply doesn't believe it anymore, similar to me.
The Bible also clearly says that anyone who becomes a Christian, then leaves the faith, is not allowed back in, and cannot be forgiven (Jesus himself said this).
Kind of a hard situation. I wish I wasn't brainwashed to believe this nonsense. I can't seem to get it out of my life.
Posted by Lou Pilder on September 29, 2006, at 23:02:59
In reply to Re: I feel better now... Lindenblüte, posted by Michael83 on September 25, 2006, at 16:07:53
Michael83,
It is written here,[...The Bibile..clearly says XXX...Jesus..said this...].
Really? Is there a verse that says that?
Lou
Posted by Phil on September 29, 2006, at 23:03:01
In reply to Re: I feel better now... Lindenblüte, posted by Michael83 on September 25, 2006, at 16:07:53
....The Bible also clearly says that anyone who becomes a Christian, then leaves the faith, is not allowed back in, and cannot be forgiven (Jesus himself said this).
________I missed that one. What about the prodigal son?
Jesus will always take you back. As long as you have the back rent covered. Something along those lines.
Posted by alexandra_k on September 29, 2006, at 23:03:04
In reply to Re: I feel better now... Lindenblüte, posted by Michael83 on September 25, 2006, at 16:07:53
Posted by Michael83 on September 29, 2006, at 23:03:07
In reply to Lou's response to Michael83's post, posted by Lou Pilder on September 25, 2006, at 17:04:03
It's been a while since I've read it, I had to find it again. But yes, it's Hebrews 6:4-6 .
It basically says if you've believed once, and then lose faith, you are not allowed back in.
My mistake though, I thought I had read a direct quote from Jesus. This book was authored by one of the apostles, but not a direct quote from Jesus himself.
Posted by Phillipa on September 29, 2006, at 23:03:09
In reply to Re: Lou's response to Michael83's post » Lou Pilder, posted by Michael83 on September 25, 2006, at 18:28:32
The bible has been interpreted over centuries by mortals as we. So we don't really know what's true and what isn't. Michael my ex felt the same way after attending Cathoic schools all his life. Your beliefs are yours to do with as you wish. Love Phillipa
Posted by Lou Pilder on September 29, 2006, at 23:03:10
In reply to Re: Lou's response to Michael83's post » Lou Pilder, posted by Michael83 on September 25, 2006, at 18:28:32
Friends,
It is written here,[...book of Hebrews chapter 6 verses 4-6...it ..says..not back...].
It is generally accepted that the book of Hebrews was written to Jews, hence title of the book of Hebrews. The author is generally accepted to be the Pharisee, Saul of Tarsus. The book is generally accepted to have been written before 70 AD, which has great significance reletive to Jews.
The verses in question are very challenging and I could tell you what has been revealed to me from a Jew's perspective.
If you are interested in what I have been revealed concerning the verses in question, you could email me if you like.
Lou
lpilder_1188@fuse.net
Posted by Michael83 on September 29, 2006, at 23:03:12
In reply to Re: Lou's response to Michael83's post » Michael83, posted by Phillipa on September 25, 2006, at 19:22:42
>>>>>The bible has been interpreted over centuries by mortals as we.
I agree, but most churches in the US and the world, the Bible is not given room for error. In fact, most churches will tell you the writers were "steered" by God to put down exactly what is true, so they will say there are no errors in the Bible.
>>>>>So we don't really know what's true and what isn't.
Then how are we supposed to know what to believe?
If we were given questionable information, who is to blame someone for leaving the faith?
And if they are not to blame for leaving based on faulty, misleading, questionable interpretations, doesn't that contradict the whole "belief in Jesus is the only way to salvation" concept, which is the basis for Christianity?
>>>>>Your beliefs are yours to do with as you wish.
That's not what the Christian religion tells me.
These are the some of the questions I struggle with on a daily basis.
The Christian religion just does not add up. Not a bit. I just don't have enough self esteem to trust my own judgement though.
Posted by alexandra_k on September 29, 2006, at 23:03:15
In reply to Re: Lou's response to Michael83's post, posted by Michael83 on September 26, 2006, at 0:09:45
hrm.
so you got redirected because you were questioning your faith?
welcome to mine
or alternatively sometimes i'm fairly tempted by this:
Open Letter To Kansas School Board
(This is a real letter that was sent)I am writing you with much concern after having read of your hearing to decide whether the alternative theory of Intelligent Design should be taught along with the theory of Evolution. I think we can all agree that it is important for students to hear multiple viewpoints so they can choose for themselves the theory that makes the most sense to them. I am concerned, however, that students will only hear one theory of Intelligent Design.
Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. It was He who created all that we see and all that we feel. We feel strongly that the overwhelming scientific evidence pointing towards evolutionary processes is nothing but a coincidence, put in place by Him.
It is for this reason that I’m writing you today, to formally request that this alternative theory be taught in your schools, along with the other two theories. In fact, I will go so far as to say, if you do not agree to do this, we will be forced to proceed with legal action. I’m sure you see where we are coming from. If the Intelligent Design theory is not based on faith, but instead another scientific theory, as is claimed, then you must also allow our theory to be taught, as it is also based on science, not on faith.
Some find that hard to believe, so it may be helpful to tell you a little more about our beliefs. We have evidence that a Flying Spaghetti Monster created the universe. None of us, of course, were around to see it, but we have written accounts of it. We have several lengthy volumes explaining all details of His power. Also, you may be surprised to hear that there are over 10 million of us, and growing. We tend to be very secretive, as many people claim our beliefs are not substantiated by observable evidence. What these people don’t understand is that He built the world to make us think the earth is older than it really is. For example, a scientist may perform a carbon-dating process on an artifact. He finds that approximately 75% of the Carbon-14 has decayed by electron emission to Nitrogen-14, and infers that this artifact is approximately 10,000 years old, as the half-life of Carbon-14 appears to be 5,730 years. But what our scientist does not realize is that every time he makes a measurement, the Flying Spaghetti Monster is there changing the results with His Noodly Appendage. We have numerous texts that describe in detail how this can be possible and the reasons why He does this. He is of course invisible and can pass through normal matter with ease.
I’m sure you now realize how important it is that your students are taught this alternate theory. It is absolutely imperative that they realize that observable evidence is at the discretion of a Flying Spaghetti Monster. Furthermore, it is disrespectful to teach our beliefs without wearing His chosen outfit, which of course is full pirate regalia. I cannot stress the importance of this enough, and unfortunately cannot describe in detail why this must be done as I fear this letter is already becoming too long. The concise explanation is that He becomes angry if we don’t.
You may be interested to know that global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters are a direct effect of the shrinking numbers of Pirates since the 1800s. For your interest, I have included a graph of the approximate number of pirates versus the average global temperature over the last 200 years. As you can see, there is a statistically significant inverse relationship between pirates and global temperature.
(I'd attach the link but aspects of it are probably uncivil)
In conclusion, thank you for taking the time to hear our views and beliefs. I hope I was able to convey the importance of teaching this theory to your students. We will of course be able to train the teachers in this alternate theory. I am eagerly awaiting your response, and hope dearly that no legal action will need to be taken. I think we can all look forward to the time when these three theories are given equal time in our science classrooms across the country, and eventually the world; One third time for Intelligent Design, one third time for Flying Spaghetti Monsterism, and one third time for logical conjecture based on overwhelming observable evidence.
Sincerely Yours,
Bobby Henderson, concerned citizen.
P.S. I have included an artistic drawing of Him creating a mountain, trees, and a midget. Remember, we are all His creatures.
(I'd attach a link but...)
______________________________In short remember to ask yourself: WWFSMS?
aka: What Would Flying Spaghetti Monster Say?
You can find your local church of the flying spaghetti monster via google.
I'd provide a link but... Well I'm sure you get the general idea.
Posted by alexandra_k on September 29, 2006, at 23:03:17
In reply to Re: Lou's response to Michael83's post, posted by alexandra_k on September 26, 2006, at 0:42:56
Here is some of what Daniel Dennett has to say (available off the Brights website):
A 2002 survey by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life suggests that 27 million Americans are atheist or agnostic or have no religious preference. That figure may well be too low, since many nonbelievers are reluctant to admit that their religious observance is more a civic or social duty than a religious one — more a matter of protective coloration than conviction.
Most brights don't play the "aggressive atheist" role. We don't want to turn every conversation into a debate about religion, and we don't want to offend our friends and neighbors, and so we maintain a diplomatic silence.
But the price is political impotence. Politicians don't think they even have to pay us lip service, and leaders who wouldn't be caught dead making religious or ethnic slurs don't hesitate to disparage the "godless" among us.
From the White House down, bright-bashing is seen as a low-risk vote-getter. And, of course, the assault isn't only rhetorical: the Bush administration has advocated changes in government rules and policies to increase the role of religious organizations in daily life, a serious subversion of the Constitution. It is time to halt this erosion and to take a stand: the United States is not a religious state, it is a secular state that tolerates all religions and — yes — all manner of nonreligious ethical beliefs as well.
I recently took part in a conference in Seattle that brought together leading scientists, artists and authors to talk candidly and informally about their lives to a group of very smart high school students. Toward the end of my allotted 15 minutes, I tried a little experiment. I came out as a bright.
Now, my identity would come as no surprise to anybody with the slightest knowledge of my work. Nevertheless, the result was electrifying.
Many students came up to me afterwards to thank me, with considerable passion, for "liberating" them. I hadn't realized how lonely and insecure these thoughtful teenagers felt. They'd never heard a respected adult say, in an entirely matter of fact way, that he didn't believe in God. I had calmly broken a taboo and shown how easy it was.
In addition, many of the later speakers, including several Nobel laureates, were inspired to say that they, too, were brights. In each case the remark drew applause. Even more gratifying were the comments of adults and students alike who sought me out afterward to tell me that, while they themselves were not brights, they supported bright rights. And that is what we want most of all: to be treated with the same respect accorded to Baptists and Hindus and Catholics, no more and no less.
If you're a bright, what can you do? First, we can be a powerful force in American political life if we simply identify ourselves. (The founding brights maintain a Web site on which you can stand up and be counted.) I appreciate, however, that while coming out of the closet was easy for an academic like me — or for my colleague Richard Dawkins, who has issued a similar call in England — in some parts of the country admitting you're a bright could lead to social calamity. So please: no "outing."
But there's no reason all Americans can't support bright rights. I am neither gay nor African-American, but nobody can use a slur against blacks or homosexuals in my hearing and get away with it. Whatever your theology, you can firmly object when you hear family or friends sneer at atheists or agnostics or other godless folk.
And you can ask your political candidates these questions: Would you vote for an otherwise qualified candidate for public office who was a bright? Would you support a nominee for the Supreme Court who was a bright? Do you think brights should be allowed to be high school teachers? Or chiefs of police?
Let's get America's candidates thinking about how to respond to a swelling chorus of brights. With any luck, we'll soon hear some squirming politician trying to get off the hot seat with the feeble comment that "some of my best friends are brights."
Posted by Dinah on September 29, 2006, at 23:03:19
In reply to Re: I feel better now... Lindenblüte, posted by Michael83 on September 25, 2006, at 16:07:53
> The Bible also clearly says that anyone who becomes a Christian, then leaves the faith, is not allowed back in, and cannot be forgiven (Jesus himself said this).
I've been a practicing member of three denominations. Not one of them taught this, and all three actively expressed the opposite viewpoint.
Posted by Declan on September 29, 2006, at 23:03:24
In reply to Re: I feel better now... Lindenblüte » Michael83, posted by Dinah on September 26, 2006, at 7:29:23
Michael, Jesus didn't say that. He did say that a sin against the Holy Spirit was unforgiveable. Is that what you're thinking of?
Posted by alexandra_k on September 29, 2006, at 23:03:31
In reply to Re: I feel better now... Michael83, posted by Declan on September 26, 2006, at 17:53:33
This is a pretty good look at contradictions in biblical texts:
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html#introduction
This church looks okay...
http://www.churchofvirus.org/index.html
I think it might be inspired by Dennett and Dawkins new books on religion... They consider the idea (meme) of religion to be a parasite that survives in spite of harming the hosts (us people).
Posted by Declan on September 29, 2006, at 23:03:32
In reply to Re: I feel better now... Michael83, posted by alexandra_k on September 26, 2006, at 19:44:56
This is a bit off topic, but I didn't like "The Blind Watchmaker" (is it?) by Dawkins. Maybe he's not a very attractive personality?
Posted by alexandra_k on September 29, 2006, at 23:03:34
In reply to Re: I feel better now... Michael83 » alexandra_k, posted by Declan on September 26, 2006, at 21:37:04
I started reading it but I never finished.
He wrote "The Selfish Gene" which is more influential.
People thought natural selection worked at the level of the organism, but he argued that the unit of selection was the gene. Organisms are just things that carry around genes. Thats how come people risk their lives for their kids and stuff... Survival of the genes...He has a book out now on religion. Dennett has one too.
I'll see if I can link to them:
It is controversial...
But kinda interesting. My version of novels...
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