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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by yxibow on March 24, 2007, at 22:46:33
In reply to Re: Scientology, Homosexuality, and its tentacles » Phillipa, posted by FredPotter on March 15, 2007, at 23:11:17
> But Phillipa it's not the real deal. They can't (usually) have children. Me, I hope for grandchildren and if one of my boys turned gay I would be disappointed for that reason. I also have gay friends and often they're more artistic and sensitive, but not always. None of this is to say they are ill, unhappy or to be given therapy or treated differently. Just my groat's worth
> Fred
And my parents were disappointed for a while, but I think have come to their own state and support of my life, I guess mainly because I'm an only child, they're academics, and I've had a whole slew of also genetically created biochemical imbalances, probably inherited from my mother's side.
The artistic and sensitive part is a stereotype. Sure, there are a varied number of gay individuals that one could think of as such. But I've met potential beaus or interests that were just out for "fun" and not terribly romantic or sensitive to me.
If I get my life in gear and my problems minimized I'm capable of having genetic children in lots of ways, getting together so to speak with a straight/lesbian woman that I have befriended a while for my own genetic child (or my partners') or maybe 2 children, one from each of us, surrogated.
And lesbian women can certainly have children from sperm banks just as straight women with husbands incapable of reproduction.
And then there's adoption too, so many children through foster care, however one may think about "two dads" or "two mommies", the fact is there are a lot of unwanted children in this world who could use some loving from us "sensitive" people.
Posted by yxibow on March 24, 2007, at 22:46:33
In reply to Re: Larry Hoovers, Quintal, Yxibow, Blueberry??? » notfred, posted by Quintal on March 15, 2007, at 4:30:14
> Interesting then that nearly all the emotionally disturbed males posting here are homosexual. Quoting studies to the contrary won't make it not so.
And there are reasons for this, because of society's and religions dictation of social policy. This leads to self-loathing and all the way to hate crimes. To make a antithesis of this, I have found more often than not on now ancient gay meeting waters online have a higher percentage of people with some sort of mental illness. And that creates a stigma because some people will dismiss them as having "issues" (that word is so overrated) and not having a caring bone in their body.
> In my own case the homosexuality is almost certainly not of a biological nature as some seem to believe, nor is there reason to suspect it would be since there are no other homosexuals in my family. It was almost certainly produced by being alternately mollycoddled and abandoned by my mother, resulting in an unhealthy obsession with her. I particularly like quote "The "aberration" was caused by a child trying to "continue the life" of a dominant parent of the opposite sex." because that is exactly what my mother instructed me to do. After being disabled she bred me as an extension of herself - a probe into the world that she could control and manipulate as she desired. She told me this.
>
> This even went as far as buying girls clothes and dolls for me to play with - to replace the belongings she wanted but never had as a child. I had to wear a pink cardigan she knitted me with her favourite sheet music as the dominant pattern. I vividly recall flushing with shame at discovering a 'One Size Fits All Ladies' label inside my new pair of gloves during a school trip (again, a deep fuchsia color with chintz pattern). No wonder I was a loner.
>
> So that's why blanket statements of homosexuality being biological just don't cut it with me, and also why those words of L. Ron Hubbard are so persuasive. They carry the ring of truth.
>
> Q
I don't know about homosexuality but the failed science fiction right is persuasive, just look at the many web sites they own, non-FDA "e-meter" devices and levels one has to climb and wierd science fiction references to Xenu, all now an official religion in the US, because the IRS wasn't able to stand up to their high powered lawyers and secret internal monitoring bureau (paid by the ponzi scheme that Scientology does to get people to give money to get to these levels and secret papers, some leaked and multiple lawsuits) and dismiss them as not being a religion and ultimately making them tax exempt.
Some headway has been made in a few European countries but they are also overrun by the constant lawyering, secret surveillance by Scientology private investigators, etc.
Posted by Declan on March 24, 2007, at 22:46:33
In reply to Re: Homosexuality is an 'adjustment disorder' » Quintal, posted by yxibow on March 16, 2007, at 1:37:28
Where does this idea come from?
Statististics?
Posted by Declan on March 24, 2007, at 22:46:33
In reply to Normal, posted by Declan on March 16, 2007, at 2:14:38
The idea of normal is offensive to me, FWIW.
In King Lear there is the analogous idea of nature, which allows for diversity.
Normal sounds like it was dreamed up by some Henry Ford type sociologist.
Posted by notfred on March 24, 2007, at 22:46:34
In reply to Re: Scientology, Homosexuality, and its tentacles » FredPotter, posted by yxibow on March 16, 2007, at 1:48:12
"The depression and anxiety/social anxiety is NOT
due to one's homosexuality...it is due to SOCIETAL/parental response TO it...at least
this seems theoretically possible."This is common in any minority that is marginalized, hated or subject to prejudice. There would be no adjustment disorder if gay people were not dispised by some Some are reduced to self lothing, and self hate.
For myself I have always received a lot of support
and tolerance. I have always been out at work. I keep it low key, but people figure it out after a while. I am in my 40's, attractive, and am not married and showing movement toward changing this.
For the the last 10 yrs I have lived in a city that is gay frendly. The town is a major Art meca
in the US. Full benifits for my partner at work. Socially things are very mixed str8/gay. When I was single my str8 male friends would try to fix me up with their gay friends. I think I have reached true acceptance from my environment, my personal acceptance has been absolute for decades.The postive environment is part of the reason I
have been in remission from Depression for some time.
Posted by FredPotter on March 24, 2007, at 22:46:34
In reply to Normal, posted by Declan on March 16, 2007, at 2:14:38
I don't think the statistical idea of Normality is relevant. I just think that heterosexuals are free to procreate (which is our life's basic function) in the most efficient way possible.
However men, to put the cat amongst the pigeons) are these days made into demons by a sizeable proportion of the female population, of whatever sexual persuasion. It seems more and more women humiliate men for not being like them, and in the case of heterosexual women, increasingly desert them, usually taking, and having custody of the children. I speak from experience. Just because "men fall asleep after sex", or similar. After everything subsided in my case I know that my children love me as I love them, but don't love their mother.
This has been a rant sorry
Fred
Posted by Dinah on March 24, 2007, at 22:46:34
In reply to Homosexuality is an 'adjustment disorder' » one woman cine, posted by Quintal on March 15, 2007, at 15:48:40
> Homosexuality clearly isn't normal (it may be acceptable in many circles, but not normal), and I don't know of any biologists or physicians that would categorize it as such.
I have made a general request on this thread to please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Dr. Bob is always free to override deputy decisions. His email is on the bottom of each page. Please feel free to email him if you believe this decision was made in error.
Dinah, acting as deputy to Dr. Bob
Posted by Dinah on March 24, 2007, at 22:46:34
In reply to Re: Scientology, Homosexuality, and its tentacles » Quintal, posted by Ken Blades on March 16, 2007, at 0:46:16
> If you're that comfortable with this 'stuff',
> then there's not much reason to bring it up
> for discussion, is there? Unless you just
> want to litter the board pointlessly.I have made a general request on this thread to please don't post anything that could lead others to feel accused or put down.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Dr. Bob is always free to override deputy decisions. His email is on the bottom of each page. Please feel free to email him if you believe this decision was made in error.
Dinah, acting as deputy to Dr. Bob
Posted by Dinah on March 24, 2007, at 22:46:34
In reply to Re: Larry Hoovers, Quintal, Yxibow, Blueberry??? » Quintal, posted by yxibow on March 16, 2007, at 1:59:33
> I don't know about homosexuality but the failed science fiction right is persuasive, just look at the many web sites they own, non-FDA "e-meter" devices and levels one has to climb and wierd science fiction references to Xenu, all now an official religion in the US, because the IRS wasn't able to stand up to their high powered lawyers and secret internal monitoring bureau (paid by the ponzi scheme that Scientology does to get people to give money to get to these levels and secret papers, some leaked and multiple lawsuits) and dismiss them as not being a religion and ultimately making them tax exempt.
I have made a general request on this thread to please don't post anything that could lead others (including Scientologists) to feel accused or put down.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Dr. Bob is always free to override deputy decisions. His email is on the bottom of each page. Please feel free to email him if you believe this decision was made in error.
Dinah, acting as deputy to Dr. Bob
Posted by Dinah on March 24, 2007, at 22:46:34
In reply to Re: Normal, posted by FredPotter on March 16, 2007, at 3:37:09
> However men, to put the cat amongst the pigeons) are these days made into demons by a sizeable proportion of the female population, of whatever sexual persuasion. It seems more and more women humiliate men for not being like them, and in the case of heterosexual women, increasingly desert them, usually taking, and having custody of the children.
I have made a general request on this thread to please don't post anything that could lead others (including women) to feel accused or put down.
If you or others have questions about this or about posting policies in general, or are interested in alternative ways of expressing yourself, please see the FAQ:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#civil
Follow-ups regarding these issues should be redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration. They, as well as replies to the above posts, should of course themselves be civil.
Dr. Bob is always free to override deputy decisions. His email is on the bottom of each page. Please feel free to email him if you believe this decision was made in error.
Dinah, acting as deputy to Dr. Bob
Posted by one woman cine on March 24, 2007, at 22:46:34
In reply to Homosexuality is an 'adjustment disorder' » one woman cine, posted by Quintal on March 15, 2007, at 15:48:40
The AGLP (association of gay and lesbian psychiatrists) have made the following statements about reparative therapy. The organization has been instrumental in taking a stand against hate and discrimination that gay men and women today face.
Their website is here with their position statements. They are, needless to say, a wonderful group of intelligent and caring individuals who have made great strides for the gay community in medicine and society's perceptions as a whole.
"Reparative" Therapy
Committee on Psychotherapy by Psychiatrists (COPP) Position Statement on Therapies Focused on Attempts to Change Sexual Orientation (Reparative or Conversion Therapies)Approved by the Board of Trustees March 2000
Approved by the Assembly May 2000
Preamble
In December of 1998, the Board of Trustees issued a position statement that the American Psychiatric Association opposes any psychiatric treatment, such as "reparative" or conversion therapy, which is based upon the assumption that homosexuality per se is a mental disorder or based upon the a priori assumption that a patient should change his/her sexual homosexual orientation (Appendix 1). In doing so, the APA joined many other professional organizations that either oppose or are critical of "reparative" therapies, including the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Medical Association, the American Psychological Association, The American Counseling Association, and the National Association of Social Workers (1). The following Position Statement expands and elaborates upon the statement issued by the Board of Trustees in order to further address public and professional concerns about therapies designed to change a patient's sexual orientation or sexual identity. It augments rather than replaces the 1998 statement.
Position Statement
In the past, defining homosexuality as an illness buttressed society's moral opprobrium of same-sex relationships (2). In the current social climate, claiming homosexuality is a mental disorder stems from efforts to discredit the growing social acceptance of homosexuality as a normal variant of human sexuality. Consequently, the issue of changing sexual orientation has become highly politicized. The integration of gays and lesbians into the mainstream of American society is opposed by those who fear that such integration is morally wrong and harmful to the social fabric. The political and moral debates surrounding this issue have obscured the scientific data by calling into question the motives and even the character of individuals on both sides of the issue. This document attempts to shed some light on this heated issue.The validity, efficacy and ethics of clinical attempts to change an individual's sexual orientation have been challenged (3,4,5,6). To date, there are no scientifically rigorous outcome studies to determine either the actual efficacy or harm of "reparative" treatments. There is sparse scientific data about selection criteria, risks versus benefits of the treatment, and long-term outcomes of "reparative" therapies. The literature consists of anecdotal reports of individuals who have claimed to change, people who claim that attempts to change were harmful to them, and others who claimed to have changed and then later recanted those claims (7,8,9).
Although there is little scientific data about the patients who have undergone these treatments, it is still possible to evaluate the theories, which rationalize the conduct of "reparative" and conversion therapies. Firstly, they are at odds with the scientific position of the American Psychiatric Association which has maintained, since 1973, that homosexuality per se, is not a mental disorder. The theories of "reparative" therapists define homosexuality as either a developmental arrest, a severe form of psychopathology, or some combination of both (10-15). In recent years, noted practitioners of "reparative" therapy have openly integrated older psychoanalytic theories that pathologies homosexuality with traditional religious beliefs condemning homosexuality (16,17,18).
The earliest scientific criticisms of the early theories and religious beliefs informing "reparative" or conversion therapies came primarily from sexology researchers (19-27). Later, criticisms emerged from psychoanalytic sources as well (28-39). There has also been an increasing body of religious thought arguing against traditional, biblical interpretations that condemn homosexuality and which underlie religious types of "reparative" therapy (40-46).
Recommendations:
1. APA affirms its 1973 position that homosexuality per se is not a diagnosable mental disorder. Recent publicized efforts to repathologize homosexuality by claiming that it can be cured are often guided not by rigorous scientific or psychiatric research, but sometimes by religious and political forces opposed to full civil rights for gay men and lesbians. APA recommends that the APA respond quickly and appropriately as a scientific organization when claims that homosexuality is a curable illness are made by political or religious groups.2. As a general principle, a therapist should not determine the goal of treatment either coercively or through subtle influence. Psychotherapeutic modalities to convert or "repair" homosexuality are based on developmental theories whose scientific validity is questionable. Furthermore, anecdotal reports of "cures" are counterbalanced by anecdotal claims of psychological harm. In the last four decades, "reparative" therapists have not produced any rigorous scientific research to substantiate their claims of cure. Until there is such research available, APA recommends that ethical practitioners refrain from attempts to change individuals' sexual orientation, keeping in mind the medical dictum to first, do no harm.
3. The "reparative" therapy literature uses theories that make it difficult to formulate scientific selection criteria for their treatment modality. This literature not only ignores the impact of social stigma in motivating efforts to cure homosexuality; it is a literature that actively stigmatizes homosexuality as well. "Reparative" therapy literature also tends to overstate the treatment's accomplishments while neglecting any potential risks to patients. APA encourages and supports research in the NIMH and the academic research community to further determines "reparative" therapy's risks versus its benefits.
Posted by one woman cine on March 24, 2007, at 22:46:34
In reply to AGLP - homosexuality and hate » Quintal, posted by one woman cine on March 16, 2007, at 10:02:14
There is also a list of gay and lesbian psychiatrists from the AGLP -
If anyone wants more info about this, you can babblemail me.
Posted by Dinah on March 24, 2007, at 22:46:34
In reply to Please be civil » FredPotter, posted by Dinah on March 16, 2007, at 9:35:26
All posts relating to administrative actions have been redirected to the Administrative Board.
Here is a link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20070304/msgs/741698.html
Please direct all future posts on the administrative aspects of this thread to the Administrative Board.
Dinah, acting as deputy to Dr. Bob
Posted by UgottaHaveHope on March 24, 2007, at 22:46:34
In reply to Redirected to Administrative Board » Dinah, posted by Dinah on March 16, 2007, at 20:58:31
It was supposed to be about anxiety before depression or vice versa. Wow.
:)
Posted by yxibow on March 24, 2007, at 22:46:34
In reply to Where did this post go off on such a tangent?, posted by UgottaHaveHope on March 17, 2007, at 3:24:42
> It was supposed to be about anxiety before depression or vice versa. Wow.
>
> :)Tangents make for an interesting discussion. 'td be bland otherwise :)
Speaking of which the board has been very slow.
Posted by Phillipa on March 24, 2007, at 22:46:35
In reply to Re: Where did this post go off on such a tangent? » UgottaHaveHope, posted by yxibow on March 17, 2007, at 11:04:05
Jay tell me about the board it used to be relaxing to come here now I feel unless it is corrected I must search out another board. Love Phillipa and Bob is never here anymore.
Posted by Quintal on March 24, 2007, at 22:46:35
In reply to Re: Scientology, Homosexuality, and its tentacles » Quintal, posted by Ken Blades on March 16, 2007, at 0:46:16
I tried redirecting the thread to the psychology board with this post yesterday, but the link failed. It's still over there on Psychology.
--------------------------------------------------
>If you're that comfortable with this 'stuff',
then there's not much reason to bring it up
for discussion, is there?Yes, I find it interesting and I'd like to explore it further with an intelligent audience.
>Unless you just
want to litter the board pointlessly.I can't help but think you would welcome the discussion if I took the opposite point of view. It's far from pointless.
>If you want to indulge in self-analysis,
you don't have to tell the whole world.I don't think I am telling the whole world. I'm sharing this and getting feedback from a specific group.
>The depression and anxiety/social anxiety is NOT
due to one's homosexuality...it is due to SOCIETAL/parental response TO it...at least
this seems theoretically possibleI said; "A lot of the depression and anxiety (particularly social anxiety) homosexual men suffer is directly due to their sexuality and the problems it causes adjusting to society."............. i.e. it's the problems being attracted to your own sex causes in trying to adjust to society's (and your own) expectations, especially during adolescence, that leads to anxiety and depression for most. I've never felt any pressure to change my sexuality from parents, or the people around me - they've all been very supportive.
The main things that dissatisfy me about my homosexuality are:
* Mis-matching genitals, this makes sex uncomfortable and awkward, often necessitating artificial aids and interventions to keep things running smoothly. I find this expensive and unpleasant, and also a little unnatural.
* Playing an ancillary role to mainstream society, especially in the role of parenting/family life.
* Finding heterosexual men more attractive than homosexual men. Finding many homosexual men a little repellent. This causes problems when seeking a potential mate.
>And 'beneath all the veneer and bluster of Gay Pride self-loathing still runs deep' might be
reflective of your own phase on the way to
[hopefully] self-acceptance, but that self-loathing still runs deep in the greater gay community is quite a stretch on your part.I don't think it is. I notice an undercurrent of misery and dissatisfaction in gay literature, art, film etc and I think that reflects the lives of most gay men. Beneath all the colour, flamboyance and placard waving of the Gay Rights movement this is still the reality for most gay men that I meet, see and read about. I used to go to a gay social/support group a few years ago and I found it depressing. Being in a supposedly supportive environment wasn't uplifting, if anything it highlighted everything that was disordered and dysfunctional about us.
>You're in denial if you think there IS a solution
to the 'problem'!I'll answer this separately in another post as therein lies the crux of 'the problem'.
>This board is SUPPOSED to be about medications, not rambling on about your
sexuality, self-loathing and some loony sci-fi
writer's opinions about homosexuality, right?I've already suggested the thread be moved to the Psychology board. I tried redirecting it with my last post, but the two boards didn't link.
Q
Posted by Quintal on March 24, 2007, at 22:46:35
In reply to Re: Scientology, Homosexuality, and its tentacles » Ken Blades, posted by Quintal on March 17, 2007, at 13:38:58
>You're in denial if you think there IS a solution
to the 'problem'!I get the impression you're assuming I want to change my sexuality in some way? I would rather change my gender (albeit temporarily) for sex. In my imagination I take the female role, literally of being mounted and penetrated. I can feel the penis entering my vagina. So from this I might be better categorized as transsexual? The problem is that I identify my gender as male, I'm comfortable in a male body, have no wish to change it, yet have the sexual and 'emotional disposition' of a woman. I can also imagine myself penetrating a man - so long as he has a vagina......... I wish there were a race of men that had vaginas and female reproductive organs. They would be my ideal sex partners.
It brings into question the meaning of gender - is it really in the gonads, or is it as the intersex people suggest, more about facial features, hair, clothes and personality? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheryl_Chase_(activist)
I can't help but think this has more to do with my mother treating me as a girl when I was a child rather than some congenital disposition that would have happened anyway. I also think this could easily be categorized as pathological, certainly an adjustment disorder.
Q
Posted by Phillipa on March 24, 2007, at 22:46:35
In reply to Sexuality With Reference to Gender, posted by Quintal on March 17, 2007, at 14:13:58
Quintal firstly a good majority of the best looking guys to me are homosexual and it really sounds more to me that you might be one of those people as it's very commone to be born looking like one sex and really being the opposite. I know a lot of surger is being done to correct the mistake mother nature made. Love Phillipa
Posted by FredPotter on March 24, 2007, at 22:46:35
In reply to Re: Where did this post go off on such a tangent? » UgottaHaveHope, posted by yxibow on March 17, 2007, at 11:04:05
> Speaking of which the board has been very slow.
Yes nobody comments on my posts. I feel like I'm keeping the whole thing going Fred
Posted by Declan on March 24, 2007, at 22:46:35
In reply to Sexuality With Reference to Gender, posted by Quintal on March 17, 2007, at 14:13:58
Congratulations.
Posted by Iansf on March 24, 2007, at 22:46:35
In reply to Sexuality With Reference to Gender, posted by Quintal on March 17, 2007, at 14:13:58
> I can't help but think this has more to do with my mother treating me as a girl when I was a child rather than some congenital disposition that would have happened anyway. I also think this could easily be categorized as pathological, certainly an adjustment disorder.
>
> QThere's definitely a distinction between transgender identification and homosexuality. A significant percentage of people, especially men, who seek gender reassignment are straight and, indeed, become gay or lesbian only by virtue of changing gender. Being dressed and treated as a girl by your mother may have influenced many aspects of your personality, but it likely had nothing to do with your being attracted to men.
Posted by Ken Blades on March 24, 2007, at 22:46:35
In reply to Re: Where did this post go off on such a tangent?, posted by FredPotter on March 17, 2007, at 19:18:20
Don't worry Fred...I feel the same way[except
for THIS thread unfortunately lol]...
just take a look around...MY posts many times
are THREAD KILLERS! Makes me hesitant to
participate[which may be the idea lol].[such power I wield!]
-----------------------------------------
Yes nobody comments on my posts. I feel like I'm keeping the whole thing going Fred
Posted by Quintal on March 24, 2007, at 22:46:35
In reply to Thinking outside the box » Quintal, posted by Declan on March 17, 2007, at 20:23:15
All would be solved if only God/the creator being person(s) would follow my blueprint for human reproductive organs outlined below;
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p46/Serepham/HermDraw2.jpg
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p46/Serepham/HermDrawFront.jpgNo more arguments over leaving the toilet seat up, childbearing could be shared/alternated between partners, no more discrimination for gays/bisexuals/transgendered persons etc, etc, etc.
Q
Posted by Quintal on March 24, 2007, at 22:46:35
In reply to Re: Sexuality With Reference to Gender » Quintal, posted by Iansf on March 17, 2007, at 21:15:00
If my childhood experiences were powerful enough to mould my personality into identifying emotionally with the opposite sex, it seems very likely that it would also have influenced my sexuality in some way.
Q
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