![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 7 of 7. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by europerep on January 31, 2010, at 10:27:09
In reply to Gray Rape, posted by PollyFarm on December 31, 2008, at 2:40:14
now i know the initial post is already more than a year old, and i only found it by accident, but still i would like to weigh in here, because I quite strongly disagree with most of what has been said so far, and I think that I would have found some of the responses to be actually quite hurtful..
I don't like approaching such a situation, and the question whether it is gray rape or not, with, sort of, definitions at hand, checking which conditions are met, etc.. plus I think every couple has its own "rules" and ways to resolve this question sex/no sex, so I don't believe that there can be given universal answers.. also, for me the question of rape is not "binary" (rape/no rape), there is a lot of space in between.. that being said, however, I do not think that the situation here is explicable with the reasons given in the posts above..
first, a man doesn't have to be able to read minds to tell whether a woman wants to have sex or not.. even if men tend to be less sensitive etc., I think that the interpretation of basic body language is not such a difficulty.. plus, if this is the only problem here, so if it's just about a misunderstanding, then he would be more than willing to learn how to respect her decisions/feelings, etc.. there can, of course, always be a sort of "gray communication", but in a respectful relationship, noone would come to interpret this as a possible rape, and the reasons for this miscommunication can be relatively easy sorted out..
then, she does not have to fight against it to legitimize her claims of it being rape, what counts in the first place is that she does not dare saying "no!", and if she does, her husband starts an argument.. I mean, come on, no means no.. you can argue about why, etc., but her decision to say no is, in my eyes, not to be subject to any kind of discussion.. it's something different if she does not want to, but to do him a favor, she puts her own preference aside, but in that case, it is her who makes the decision for having sex..
this is also where I see the analogy of a child begging for something as flawed.. in this example, the mother gives in because she can't stand to see her child cry.. in the question discussed here, she prefers to evade any discussion with her husband because she fears the consequences (and not her husband being disappointed for the rejection of his pleas). it is true that her giving in does give him a certain legitimization, but that is only because he creates an environment where this seems to her be the less bad option.. I mean obviously he doesn't care about her feelings, or where is he when afterwards she is crying? if I were him, that would be so devastating to me..in the end, I have to say that describing this as "gray rape" is quite accurate..
as for the last, highly insensitive, post by manic.. you suppose that, because they have once had good, consensual sex, that she is obliged to keep up this "service" for him? she does not have to give reasons, justify, etc., if she says no she says no, that's it.. as I said, you can discuss the "why?", what has changed since the times you've had consensual sex, but nothing justifies this sort of "i only take what's mine-attitude"..
Posted by Phillipa on January 31, 2010, at 11:16:08
In reply to Re: Gray Rape, posted by europerep on January 31, 2010, at 10:27:09
Where is the link to this old thread? Phillipa
Posted by europerep on January 31, 2010, at 12:31:30
In reply to Re: Gray Rape » europerep, posted by Phillipa on January 31, 2010, at 11:16:08
> Where is the link to this old thread? Phillipa
hi! I too was wondering why the previous posts didn't show up. here's the link:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/relate/20071110/msgs/871574.html
Posted by evenintherain on February 1, 2010, at 2:29:00
In reply to Re: Gray Rape, posted by europerep on January 31, 2010, at 10:27:09
yeah, i wish the original poster got some better answers earlier.
i know it's a really sensitive subject, but i'm glad you weighed in.
rape does not have to involve physical violence, imo. and what kind of husband doesn't care when she cries afterward?
i don't know, "gray rape" sounds like an ok term to me too.
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 2, 2010, at 1:58:30
In reply to Re: Gray Rape, posted by europerep on January 31, 2010, at 10:27:09
> I quite strongly disagree with most of what has been said so far, and I think that I would have found some of the responses to be actually quite hurtful..
Like Polly may have felt hurt by her husband's responses?
Bob
Posted by europerep on February 5, 2010, at 14:39:07
In reply to Re: Gray Rape, posted by Dr. Bob on February 2, 2010, at 1:58:30
hm, I have read, and reread, your post, but I don't think I really understand.. seeing that, in the short period tha I have been on this board, I have only seen you intervene in cases of people not being civil, I hope I did not cross any line here.. but in fact, I very carefully chose my words, and I thought that to "strongly disagree" would be within the boundaries..
but as for your question:
what do you mean by response? the fact that he exerted pressure onto her for having sex? I have no idea how that has been or is to her.. I do believe that that is more hurtful than the answers she received here, but still I wonder whether it is a coincidence that I cannot find any post of hers after the 31.12.08, i.e. the day she started this topic. I mean the answers ranged from him being "sexually insensitive" to "what are you complaining about?", I am quite sure that that would have severely hurt me..
that is, among other reasons, why I decided to respond, even if she probably won't came back here to see what happened to her post..
Posted by Dr. Bob on February 28, 2010, at 16:27:00
In reply to Re: Gray Rape, posted by europerep on February 5, 2010, at 14:39:07
> I hope I did not cross any line here.. but in fact, I very carefully chose my words
Sorry about not replying sooner. And thanks for choosing carefully. Referring to posts as hurtful could, however, lead the posters to feel accused or put down.
> still I wonder whether it is a coincidence that I cannot find any post of hers after the 31.12.08, i.e. the day she started this topic.
Maybe it's not a coincidence, maybe she felt hurt here.
Bob
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Social | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.