Posted by SLS on October 2, 2000, at 9:35:29
In reply to Re: Now I'm angry, ToddFromPhoenix, because... » SLS, posted by Racer on October 2, 2000, at 1:43:10
Hi Racer.
> > > And during her great pain, she'll have to find them -- and PAY FOR them. Aside from the pain and suffering, do you have any idea how expensive death is??
> > Listen, the world is full of the financial hardships that death can produce.
> > There are free and "sliding-scale" programs available for supporting the grieved. I imagine there are free support groups for survivors of suicide. I don't know. I guess it depends upon whether or not someone lives in a city or a suburb.
> The support groups may be sliding scale, but the biological clean up costs big bux. An employee of mine lost his grandfather to a self-inflicted gunshot about 18 months ago. It was terrible, and the money for the cleanup was unexpected and very significant. And no, there was no financial assistance, and no, they were compelled to pay someone else to do it. Hazardous biological waste.
It is interesting how little attention I have paid to such a real and significant aspect of an event that we see and here of in the media every day. I didn't know. I don't recall ever seeing a news story devote a single second of coverage to the condition of the room in which the deceased has committed his tragic act or how to go about cleaning it up.
This, however, has nothing to do with the extreme conditions that *may* have driven the deceased to take their own life. If after years of excruciating pain, I have RATIONALLY and deliberatively decided that it was time to go, I don't think pointing a finger at me to consider the mess and expense I would create is going to weigh heavily on the other side of the balance scale. To have even considered the logistical consequences to others as an argument to take precedence over what goes into making a decision to commit suicide to me is sad. It helps serve to demonstrate to me the *lack* of acknowledgment of the predicament of the suffering and the decision making process that the sufferer has agonized with for what perhaps has seemed like an eternity of inflicted torture. Truly, LIFE has been the sole criminal for some individuals in this world. Think about it.
How would you regard the decision of a prisoner of war who, after having had the skin ripped off his back by his torturers and sprayed with acid, has bitten into the cyanide capsule he has been hiding buccally? By the way, this day follows the one they had done the same thing with his torso. The torturers are intent on keeping him alive as long as possible. They believe he knows where a single land-mine is hidden. He doesn't. This man is your brother.
Of course, you and I both know that this sort of thing has never happened. Right?
> > > Of course not. I do know, though, that we can survive a lot of pain.
> > "A lot"? You have betrayed the complexity and painful contemplation of this issue. So, friend, where do *you* concede a line be drawn whereupon more-than-a-lot is too much?
> If, as I suspect, you're suggesting that I underestimate the pain and complexity of depression, please sit back for a moment and ask why I'd be here if I didn't have some clue about depression? Or ask one of the old timers here, like stjames, whether they think I have maybe an inkling about it...
Yes, you do have an inkling.
To quote what was lost in my previous post:
"At this juncture, I would encourage anyone interested in this subject to acknowledge that they do not know what it is like to be every person in the world. There is much here to contemplate."
> > > Depression is something which can be overcome.
> > For me, I hope you are right. I have invested 23 years of painful endurance and 18 years of drugs and hope and failure. Please guarantee me that my neurophysiological disorder will be successfully treated before I die. I'll be your best friend... (not such a good deal for you) :-)
> I've had recurring depressions for almost 30 years, since late childhood/early adolescence. My first experience of anti-depressants came a decade into a severe depression which made it difficult for me to get through school. Tricyclics, with major side effects including a 70# weight gain. Then Paxil, a decade later, with a 50# weight gain and other side effects. Now, I'm on a drug cocktail, and am fairly stable. I'm hoping to go off the meds again next year, when I'll have been stable for about two years.
> > I am SURE that you do not know how hard life can be. I know that it can be harder than you dare imagine. I know that it can be harder than you can imagine should you dare to. This is also true of me.
See your brother above.
> Scott, you have NO right to say that to me.
I have every right to. I owe this to the First Ammendment to the Constitution of the United States of America, for which many have suffered and died for. I appreciate their suffering and hardship. I have the privilege to say it here. I have the motivation to respond to what you have already said. I have the right to be wrong. Am I?
> Just as you say I couldn't possibly know how hard someone else's life has been, you can't know how hard my life has been!
Again, I hope I fully demonstrated in my previous post that I am very aware of this.
"At this juncture, I would encourage anyone interested in this subject to acknowledge that they do not know what it is like to be every person in the world. There is much here to contemplate."
Do you know how hard your brother's day has been? I don't. I can't.
> Let's see, should we have a test to see who deserves the right to claim the title of 'depressed individual' or maybe pin a list of failed drugs to our sleeves?
Ouch.
To quote you:
"Scott, you have NO right to say that to me."
No sweat.
> Listen, I am not in competition with you. I'm just trying to offer some hope.
> Two years ago I was actively suicidal, locked up on a 5150 in the county hospital, uninsured, unemployed, isolated from everyone, dealing with a doctor who pushed drugs at me despite major side effects (BP so low I couldn't walk unassisted), and hardly able to pay my bills. My mother, who thinks that depression is weak will, had to loan me money for bills, to keep a roof over my head. I couldn't get drugs, because of the cost. The doctor told me that the drugs were fine, even when I couldn't keep any food down because of them.
> Believe me, I do know something about how bad it can get.
No, you don't.
> And I don't believe that my recovery is an anomaly. I think that if you give up and run away, you'll never know if you could recover too.
Neither do I. It is the anomaly for which you cannot identify with. To try to avoid accusations of narcissism, please see my quote above.
> I will probably have to take drugs again down the line. I will probably have another depressive episode. It's still worth it to experience the life I'm building back up for myself.
> Every book I read, every new song I hear, they're all things I'd have missed out on if I'd taken the coward's way out. I'm glad to have survived. I hope you do too.
You have indeed suffered and lost much. Only you can know how much. Only you can know as to when more-than-a-lot becomes too much.
If more-than-a-lot does become too much for you, I will try to cure you if I can, easy your pain if I can, help you find someone who can if I can, ask you what I can do for you, and try to convince you to allow more time and stay alive. I will NOT try to persuade you not to end your life by telling you what a mess you would make for everyone to clean up and make you feel guilty for not having taken that into consideration. Well, perhaps I would. It might work.
Perhaps your condition is chronic and untreatable. Perhaps you are a cancer patient with six months to live and suffering excruciating pain for which there is no escape, not even with morphine. You have thought it over. You beg everyone around you to help you die. When it comes right down to it, it is the pain and agony you suffer that I would be most wanting to ease. Whatever it takes.
Perhaps you don't have to shoot the horse.
Perhaps, if things were different, the same act would be accomplished without making a mess.
Let's just agree that we both have a different hierarchy of priorities, and that we differ in how we feel about another's pain we cannot know.
There is much here to contemplate.
- Scott
poster:SLS
thread:42903
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20000926/msgs/45646.html