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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by michmich on October 7, 2003, at 17:52:47
Hello, I feel totally abondoned by my therapist and it hurts soooo much. I didn'y know who to turn to, but I found this web page today, and all of you seam very supportive. If anyone can email me, that would be so aprreciated. Its Mythunderstandin@aol.com Thanks
Posted by fallsfall on October 7, 2003, at 20:10:39
In reply to therapist abandonment, posted by michmich on October 7, 2003, at 17:52:47
Do you want to tell us a bit about what happened? I would rather talk on the open board, plus I am a bit fragile right now, and others will be able to help you here, too.
Posted by michmich on October 7, 2003, at 20:27:58
In reply to Re: therapist abandonment » michmich, posted by fallsfall on October 7, 2003, at 20:10:39
Well, I have been seeing this female therapist for 2 years now at my university... we have been through ups and downs, fights, declarations of a sort of love, and i have finally been opening up to her. she used to let me email her, but her supervisor will no longer aloow the councelors to email. also,lately i have felt very vulnerable and needy as i have been opening up to her, and also finally told her that im infatuated with her. I have not told all the stuff, i have done, but it still feels weird. On friday we got into a huge fight because of misunderstandings and false perceptions. I had to wait till monday to talk to her. now shes decided, no email, talking on the phone bewtween sessions, no calling the center to ask to talk to her. she said she stil loves me and that this was in my best interest and that we would still see one another once a week. Monday and tuesday have felt like eons to me, and my next appt. is allll the way on thursday. Last night i stopped by at the center to talk to an intern, and today i walked in and the asked to have a meeting with the supervisor, which was so empty, and he is so dense...and he told me to hold on to my feelings and hang in there and to work with her on thursday to develop better coping skill. i have been waiting it out for seven years (and im only 20)... i know im being needy lately,but atleast im adhereing to the rules of no contact with MY therapist. Dont they understand that this sudden change is very hard for me? I guess not. I have been in agnony, the whole day. I even have a urge to email my therapist but i am afraid i will it in more trouble. its like the only way i could get help from people is if i kill my self, and if im dead, its tool late :( I hate this! Thanks for reading.
Posted by HannahW on October 7, 2003, at 20:47:57
In reply to Re: therapist abandonment » fallsfall, posted by michmich on October 7, 2003, at 20:27:58
Hi--
I don't whether you are male or female, but is this declared love between two of you romantic? Is her love for you a professional type of caring, or is it more?
She's trying to re-establish the boundaries of the therapeutic relationship, which I know is incredibly painful. Check the archives about transference. Last month there was quite a bit of discussion about it, and I found it to be VERY helpful for me in understanding why these intense feelings happen toward my therapist.
Posted by michmich on October 7, 2003, at 20:51:50
In reply to Re: therapist abandonment » michmich, posted by HannahW on October 7, 2003, at 20:47:57
thank you. well, its a proffesioniol caring and a tiny bit more. nothing romantic or over the top from either of us. It just hurts real bad right now. they basically told me in very nice other words, that i was annoying the F out of them
Posted by fallsfall on October 7, 2003, at 21:25:47
In reply to Re: therapist abandonment, posted by michmich on October 7, 2003, at 20:51:50
It is mandatory that she "love" you only professionally. It is in your best interest to truly believe that that is all that she can ever do. Anything else on her part is unethical - she will lose her license.
You can have all the feelings you want for her, and you can talk all about them, but she can only feel professionally towards you. Understanding that can help to keep your expectations under control.
That said, I had no "extra" feelings for my therapist. I was just incredibly dependent on her. I don't see that I am capable of making progress towards getting better - therefore, if any progress was to be made, it was up to her. She made it very clear that my excessive dependency was a bad thing. She made it clear that calling between sessions (unless I had to go into the hospital) was being "needy". On rare occasions I would drop off a letter between sessions so she could read it before I came in. I developed pretty good coping mechanisms to wait the week between sessions. It was hard just about every week. I was so afraid of making her mad that I wouldn't have dreamed of breaking her boundaries.
I have now switched therapists, and have been trying very hard not to be dependent on my new therapist. Not that I've been successful.
Does this dependency sound familiar to you?
It hurts a lot and all the time. I don't know how to fix it. If you figure it out, let me know!
Posted by michmich on October 7, 2003, at 21:33:17
In reply to Re: therapist abandonment » michmich, posted by fallsfall on October 7, 2003, at 21:25:47
Awwh..thats tough...im sorry..i wish i knew the answer too. I dont have a love for her, im really just being needy, but she doesnt call it that, she just says i cant do certain behaviors, and i hate it. i dont feel romantic towards her..but we both have a little special extra care for eachother beside the therapist/client one. I am very dependant on her recently, and the boundaries are killing me. Except, i dont care about making her mad, i like when she gets mad, its shows she cares. im just afraid she will have to stop seeing me cuz her superisor has a pole up his ass..... i cant wait till thursday :(
Posted by fallsfall on October 7, 2003, at 21:48:59
In reply to Re: therapist abandonment, posted by michmich on October 7, 2003, at 21:33:17
I understand about the boundaries killing you.
I have learned (very painfully) that the boundaries are really good things, and that they are at least as much for our protection as they are for their protection. Doesn't make them hurt any less, but at least if you know intellectually that they are a good idea it is a LITTLE easier to live with them.
Did you initiate the meeting with her supervisor? What did you talk about? Is she a trainee, or is she done with her schooling and training?
You might want to read "In Session". It has pretty good descriptions of what the theraputic relationship is, and why it needs to be that way. (It says it is about women and their therapists, but a lot of it works for both men and women)
I go on Thursday (an eternity away), too. Let us know how it goes for you.
Posted by Still Hurting on October 7, 2003, at 22:19:47
In reply to Re: therapist abandonment » michmich, posted by fallsfall on October 7, 2003, at 21:48:59
michmich, all i can say is to work with these new boundaries that she has given to you. My therapist simply terminated me because of my "dependent behaviors". I did everything that you did. I called between sessions,etc. And when i looked again, she terminated me as a client completely. And termination hurts more than a counselor re-establishing her boundaries. Sometimes though, you wonder if the reestablishment of boundaries is the counselor's doing or the manager's doing. But either way, it's done. Many people in this profession are very afraid of transference, while others see it as a golden opportunity. But all I can say to you is, i know that it is rough, but at least she chooses to still have you as a client. And that seems to be the most important thing. You wouldn't want to feel the pain of total abandonment...now that's really rough.
Posted by HannahW on October 7, 2003, at 22:26:24
In reply to Re: therapist abandonment » fallsfall, posted by Still Hurting on October 7, 2003, at 22:19:47
Still Hurting--
You do, indeed, sound like you're still hurting. I'm sorry, that would sincerely suck. I hear the pain in your post, and just wanted to reach out in whatever feeble way I could.
Posted by michmich on October 7, 2003, at 22:29:52
In reply to Re: therapist abandonment » michmich, posted by fallsfall on October 7, 2003, at 21:48:59
Oh my gosh, you guys are soo cool. At least I dont feel alone anymore :). I get what you all are saying about boundaries, but its still hard. What really is the problem, is how do I deal with the waiting time from minute to minute..nothing seams to work. how do i stop self defeating behaviors....im sure you guys would like to know also. hehe. this succkkksss.
Posted by fallsfall on October 8, 2003, at 7:23:12
In reply to Re: therapist abandonment, posted by michmich on October 7, 2003, at 22:29:52
I will tell you what I know I should be doing. Maybe you will be more successful than me!
Distraction, Distraction, Distraction. Build a social support system (friends you can really talk to) - this takes time, but is the most important thing you can do. Try, try, try to get a life. Therapy is NOT your life - if I could learn that I would be much happier. Your therapist is not in your future, she is in your present - you need to be sure you have a future to go to. Accept boundaries, accept boundaries and know they are good.
Now let's see how much of this I can do, too!
Good luck
Posted by michmich on October 8, 2003, at 16:53:19
In reply to Re: therapist abandonment » michmich, posted by fallsfall on October 8, 2003, at 7:23:12
Hey all. I listened to your suggestions....its helped me thorugh last night..and i managed to go to classes today, but i couldnt study yesterday or today, and i have this big test tommarow. I just needed to speak to my therapist or just absorb her. I did not try to contact her though. Though, i went the counceling center and studied in the office, even though i knew she was not there....then the supervisor..walks in doesnt look at me, and doesnt kick me out...i was so glad....then later i knew she walked through the door, but i did not look up, and she did not acknowledge me. then, my summer psych proffesor (who respects me and i go an A in his class) comes up to me and tells me that dr. says she already saw me this week. I tell him i was confused because i told the secrataries that i was just here to study and did not need to talk to anybody (i think part of the reason she told him to tell me to leave at the time, is because she would be leaving in ten minutes and would not want to run into me).... so i politeely say "oh i did not realize i couldnt study here" and he says "no problem, gotcha, see ya round thanks"...i leave...go to my room. 10 minutes later i am FUMING...i call the office and ask to talk to her...the secretary comes back and says that she is not permitted to talk to me. I hang up. i call 5 minutes later and ask to talk to anyone. the supervisor calls me in 10 minutes...and i tell him that i am trying to be as sane as i can with the shit i am going through. if sitting in a lobby room makes me feel better, and allows me to study, i dont see anything wrong with that. she is the one who started calling me, emailing me, seeing me for extra sessions cuz she wanted me to open up and shes fod of me. then she cuts me off and expects me to be fine" so he says he understand, and that this was for my benefit, and that he would like me to come to the scheduled appt. tommarow still. I said calmly "okay. bye". I cant believe this, i was crying for 20 minutes after. they keep telling me have so much going for me, and that i have friends, and a boyfriend, and do weel in school, and have a nice home.....but none of that matters when i feel so empty. this is i type of pain i cant handle for so long by self and they are telling me to endure and tha i will be fine. id love for them to be bleeding, and i wish i was their doctor...so i could send them out, and say "endure it youll be fine, just run some water over it, i treating you last week for a different thing anyway." i wish that could happen, freaken bastards. I have no idea how she will be tommarow...and i have no idea wehter i will act vulnerable, aloof, depressed, chipper, or anggrryyy/ At least i dont feel empty right now, just ready for war. AARRRGGGHHH I hope I dont sound TOO nuts...what can i say, this is my mental health week. :) Thanks all.
Posted by fallsfall on October 8, 2003, at 17:48:28
In reply to Re: therapist abandonment, posted by michmich on October 8, 2003, at 16:53:19
(((michmich)))
I know the pain you feel. I won't tell you what *I* do about it because that gets me in a lot of trouble.
Do you have anything that reminds you of her? A business card, or appointment card, or something of yours that the two of you talked about? Some physical thing that you connect with her? Is her picture in the yearbook (I don't know if they put counselor's pictures in)? It is helpful to me to have something I can hold, or put in my pocket that will let me connect a little. Has she ever recommended a book to you? Did you read it? You could read it again, or buy it. These things aren't "cuddly", but it is at least something. Can you find a picture of the building she works in?
Do you have an understanding friend? Someone who you could talk to about intimate things? Someone who could let you believe that if she disappeared tomorrow that someone might be able to fill the void at least part way? Or do you know two people who can meet different needs together and you can see how the two of them could meet your needs? It has been really important for me to know that I could go to an old group therapist of mine - and that she could meet my needs. Then I wasn't as terrified that I would lose my therapist. As much as I needed my therapist, I knew that I wouldn't be totally dead in the water if I couldn't see her anymore.
My third suggestion is harder, and you may need her help for this one. This, however, is the suggestion that can bring you a lasting solution. You need her for *something*. She fills a specific need for you (maybe more than one, but let's look at the major one first). Can you tell what need she fills? Think about what would happen if she wasn't there - what would your panic be about? In my case, my therapist defined my selfworth for me - if I thought she liked me, then I was a good person, if I thought she was mad at me, then I was a bad person. It didn't matter what I thought, or what my friends thought, or what my family thought. She defined whether I was good or bad. Once you can identify what need she is filling (and you may need her help to do this), then you can try to figure out how else that need might be met. Can family or a friend meet the need? Is there a way that you can understand the world better and not need that as much? You might have to combine more than one solution to meet the need. In my case I did some research on self esteem and learned that people both judge themselves and take input from important people in their lives. So I started to look at self esteem more that way. If nothing else, it helped just knowing what it was that I needed that badly.
You need to study for your test. Is there someone in your class that you could study with? That could help you stay more focused on the material and less focused on her. Some people are successful by taking a "vacation" - you could promise yourself that in 2 hours you could think about her all you want for 30 minutes. But that you had to focus on your test for those two hours. Repeat as necessary. That one is hard for me to do, but it works for other people.
If you get into a panic state (you know what I mean), then you need to get out of the panic state before anything will work. I usually watch movies on TV - because they engage my mind, and they distract me from my therapist. Usually, by the time the movie is over, I am back to being only needy, but not panicking at the same time. I like movies better than Sitcoms because they last longer and tend to have more depth (which keeps me engaged better). But anything that will distract you will work. Taking a nap sometimes helps me (I sometimes pretend I'm in their office as a fantasy to help me get to sleep).
But my alltime favorite is: Ice Cream. Early and often.
Wow. Don't you think that my therapist would be proud of me for all these coping mechanisms?
michmich, it is so hard, I know. But trying even one of these things might help enough to make it bearable.
Try to stay away except for your sessions, or she will put more restrictions on you. If you don't have anything from her to hold, in your next session ask her to write something down for you - your next appointment, or a book suggestion, or your diagnosis, or the type of therapy she does (cognitive behavioral (CBT), or Psychodynamic, or Rational Emotive (RET), or Psychoanalytic) - I would be interested in knowing what kind of therapy it is - that can make a difference when you are trying to figure out what she means by something, or what kinds of suggestions she is more likely to accept.
Hang in there. It has gotten much better for me. I'll bet it can get better for you, too.
Posted by michmich on October 8, 2003, at 19:43:46
In reply to Re: therapist abandonment » michmich, posted by fallsfall on October 8, 2003, at 17:48:28
Oh my gosh, You dont even KNOW how much your letter put me at ease, u are too sweet. It's really cool knowing someone I can relate to on this issue (because my college friends look at me like I have 3 heads). I can't believe how far you have come, your slef, and I also admire you for letting yourself feel all your feeling no matter what. I have a hard time expressing my feelings but here it is so easy for me. Oh, I did get to study for a long while before the kicked me out, so that was cool. As for the wonderful suggestions you gave me. I dont know how to carry her words with me, and the buisness card makes me want to cut my self with it (lol). I am so happy that it works for you though. As far as tv, everything just reminds me of her (and im not so into tv (except for a select few shows). Yes, she (and all her poor "have shit of their own" iterns have given me many many suggestions. I try them sometime, but they dont work lately, i just fall out of it and get distracted by my anger or sadness or emptiness again. I honestly am starting to realize that I am not be so much "stubborn" about using coping methods, but that a part of me WANTS to suffer. And i dont think its so much that i want to see her, or i want to know what shes doing (i mean i do, but thats not really what i want) its more that shes a great distraction for me. Of course she not just a dstraction, but sometimes i experience her as one when i want to. My kind of sort of boyfriend is busy with work lately, although he is still there for me...my other kind of sort of boyfriend is like...too puppy dog for me, and doesnt understand me, although he is there for me....my two girlfriends are awesome, but one loves talking about her own shit, and the other is way to optimistic and the type of problems she has is that she doesnt know what present to get her boyfriend! lol. I am clueless when it comes to making friends. I dont really reach out to people. i just wait for them to reach out to me, again, again, and again. once a year i get lucky and make a friend this way! If my hterapist disappeared tommarow, it would suck because i know her, and i think i finally trust even though i get paranoid sometimes, but I know I would just find somebody else to fill her place. Its a bad cycle. I did contact my awesome social worker who i was never needy with, and we will try and get in touch, but she doesnt know me anymore..im a different person..not totally but a little..and i dont feel like playing catch up...but i guess she is good for when i have the urge to go to joann's freaken house and just drive past it...i hope that urge never come true. some women stalked her when she was an intern, and she probably extra sensitive on shit like that. if i ever did that, it wouldnt be to get her attention but just to secretely do it..so i dont something crazier that will get her to fire me!<<wow my social worker JUST call me>> We shmoozed and she was so glad to here from me. She proud of me and told me that and then she was like "ok, come on tell me whats wrong" So i told her a summed up version. and since she knows how i was in the past, she says she totally understands..and although it hurts, and although this therapists approach is different from hers..i do know her, and she knows me pretty well, and i like her. So she gave me the nurturing (or I let her give it to me), and said that because this therapists approach is for some reason not allowing me to open up with her a whole bunch during sessions, i should "stick with this strick boundary crap" and go with it for 2 weeks and then see how i feel and if im getting better at waiting between session and also opening up. My social worker thinks that if i open up i probably wont feel as vulnerable and also will be able to work on other things. She also told me she loves me, and that felt good, but i just "thank you" like a guy cuz it felt so weird! haha. >> So anyway, your third suggestion was really awesome. She suggested that too! I was in an optimistic mood about the boundaries and therapy and being insightful, and wrote a letter adressed to her but it was really to myself in a way, and i got somwhere at least with answering that question...but then the waiting got rough and ive been anything but optimistic lol. Sometimes i think im so lucky they dont fire me, and other times i think they are so lucky that im putting up with THEIR crap. Its odd how i "obsess"..its more that shes the cause in mind, and then all these other extremely frustrating thoughts and feelings come flying in that have nothing to do with her..and it drives me cazy, so seeing her, allows me to focus on her instead of me. wow..ew i cant believe i said that and that that might me true. The only ways i know how to get out of a panic state are really realy bad. and ive stopped most of those ways, which is why ive been calling the crisis team just to distract me even though i made it clear to them that im not suicidal. I swear.. one day those interns are going to thank me when they have their own problem patient. Sometimes i see it as revenge (against people they remind me of from like a million years ago..haha i know it sounds crazy). I dont care if your other therapist would be proud you (because she abandoned you when the going got tough like most of them do..however i know that her defining ur self worth thing is important to you) but I reallllyyyyy care that you are proud of you, and i am proud of you! She is very CBT and her supervisor with the pole up his but is extra CBT so these restrictions are no suprise. Its funny, i know that im alot to put up to for 30 bucks a week, and for interns who dont get paid shit, but my tuition is what is paying for it. Besides..i deserve it, im sick of the same kind of people who caused me to be like this, dont want me to act like that to them...and anyway...ive been going there for 2 years...thats alot of 30 bucks for a college student..and most of the time we just bullshitted in session. so again, im back to thinking they should kiss my but..lol. I am not an ice creasm, although its cool that it works for u, but i can tell you that i am going out with my puppy kind of sort of boyfriend in a few, but to get me through the night, as i have not been sleeping..I have found two things that may just work: 1. remembering the phone call from my social worker. 2. reading the amazing later you sent me, and of course the ones others have sent. You are one cool amazing person. Thanks a million. We both have our thursday therapy apointment (which is like 10 years in michelle years) so **here's** to it being... a helpful one, and not just one that last the 50 minutes...lol! Good luck girl. Thanks! :)
Posted by kitkat33 on October 10, 2003, at 17:18:42
In reply to therapist abandonment, posted by michmich on October 7, 2003, at 17:52:47
I feel the same way right now. It's really hard. They have all the power in the relationship. Mine, keeps turning it around on me. I hope it works out for you.
Posted by michmich on October 10, 2003, at 17:55:37
In reply to Re: therapist abandonment, posted by kitkat33 on October 10, 2003, at 17:18:42
I know, right Kit? It's craazzyy....they have all the power so they could make me crazy, they are setting me up to fail, or they are torturing me for fun. when i do something its wrong, when they do the same things its wright. i cant believe im trying to please them, to do anything to stay. and i hate that at the same time.
Posted by fallsfall on October 10, 2003, at 19:31:45
In reply to Re: therapist abandonment, posted by michmich on October 10, 2003, at 17:55:37
So, how was therapy on Thursday?
Have you talked to her about what you said in the response back to Kitkat33?
I hope you are feeling better (my report is in my thread above).
This is the end of the thread.
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