![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 23 to 47 of 47. Go back in thread:
Posted by Karen_kay on January 22, 2004, at 23:16:29
In reply to Re: I called Bubba :(, posted by gardenergirl on January 22, 2004, at 22:17:18
You're all very sweet and I truly appreciate it. I was talking with a friend today and it made me realize how very much something like that could freak someone out though. I mean, come on that would be pretty scary. "Oh, by the way, I know where you live and what your wife looks like and your dog." That's pretty freaky. My friend was like, "So you're impulsive, blah blah...and you follow your impulses, blah blah, impulse this, ect." I just started bawling. I have a problem, and it's about time I did something about fixing it, wouldn't you say? Maybe he didn't handle the situation properly, but it's about time I quit pretending I don't have problems and started owning up to them. It's not normal to just *find out* where people live. It's not just natural curiousity in my case.
And how did I expect him to react? "Oh, I'm glad you invaded my personal life. Why don't you stop by sometime and meet the wife and kids?" But, I've never seen him so angry. (And I guess he wasn't lying when he said his natural defense was to lie about things. I almost called him on that, but I thought it wasn't the time.) He's very upest with me and I don't blame him. I suppose I would be too. Actually, I am. Not for telling him but for the whole thing. If I had more common sense then I wouldn't get myself into stupid situations like this in the first place. And these things do happen quite frequently, you know.
I learned a valuable lesson today. Therapists are human too. They react with emotions sometimes, especially if they don't like what you have to say.
Now, does anyone know how I can quit shaking (and crying?)
Posted by gardenergirl on January 22, 2004, at 23:34:34
In reply to Thanks all :), posted by Karen_kay on January 22, 2004, at 23:16:29
Now, imagine that I made you a tape for relaxation, but I accidentally recorded it at high speed, causing me to sound like Minnie Mouse and you to hyperventilate from trying to follow the instructions.
Doesn't really relax you through the content, but it is good for a laugh, which can help. It really happened, and I almost peed my pants listening to it with my colleagues. Had to turn it off before I totally ruined my rep.
:)
I hope this doesn't feel like I'm minimizing how you are feeling. Just wanted to make you smile.
Just breathe. You'll get through it. I have confidence in you.
gg
Posted by All Done on January 23, 2004, at 0:09:15
In reply to Thanks all :), posted by Karen_kay on January 22, 2004, at 23:16:29
> You're all very sweet and I truly appreciate it. I was talking with a friend today and it made me realize how very much something like that could freak someone out though. I mean, come on that would be pretty scary. "Oh, by the way, I know where you live and what your wife looks like and your dog." That's pretty freaky. My friend was like, "So you're impulsive, blah blah...and you follow your impulses, blah blah, impulse this, ect." I just started bawling. I have a problem, and it's about time I did something about fixing it, wouldn't you say? Maybe he didn't handle the situation properly, but it's about time I quit pretending I don't have problems and started owning up to them. It's not normal to just *find out* where people live. It's not just natural curiousity in my case.
> And how did I expect him to react? "Oh, I'm glad you invaded my personal life. Why don't you stop by sometime and meet the wife and kids?" But, I've never seen him so angry. (And I guess he wasn't lying when he said his natural defense was to lie about things. I almost called him on that, but I thought it wasn't the time.) He's very upest with me and I don't blame him. I suppose I would be too. Actually, I am. Not for telling him but for the whole thing. If I had more common sense then I wouldn't get myself into stupid situations like this in the first place. And these things do happen quite frequently, you know.
> I learned a valuable lesson today. Therapists are human too. They react with emotions sometimes, especially if they don't like what you have to say.
> Now, does anyone know how I can quit shaking (and crying?)Karen,
The crying thing is a bit of a breakthrough for you, no? Maybe you can look at it as something good that came of this. (Kind of a strange "good" thing, though, I know.)
I'm with everyone else, though. *Please* don't blame yourself for anything. You didn't do anything wrong (or anything different than what most of us have done). The only difference might be that you were the brave one that told your therapist about it all. I still have hope that Bubba will get his act together on this one because you need him to.
Until your next appointment, though, maybe we should work on the sleep over. (I find distraction to be a fantastic coping mechanism, at times.) If you want, we can start by telling our stories of googling our therapists over popcorn and a video tape of the 1983 Miss America pageant. I can start with my Beefcake googling, but I must warn you, it's not very interesting. (But have you ever literally tried googling "Bubba"? If you want a good laugh, do it. I mean, seriously, Bubba the Love Sponge! What's up with that?)
Take care,
All Done
Posted by Dinah on January 23, 2004, at 3:25:06
In reply to Thanks all :), posted by Karen_kay on January 22, 2004, at 23:16:29
Gardenergirl's right. Concentrate on your breathing.
You know, we *are* nice, but we're not *being nice* in this situation. The fact is that a lot of us have done what you've done. Some of us have admitted to what we did and had either a calm or an angry reception. Some of us haven't admitted it. But none of us would want the reaction you got. So we're being empathetic, because we've all been/could have been/or might oneday be in the place you're at.
And I still don't think it's awful. You didn't do anything that wasn't in the public records. What did you do that you might not have done for a prospective employer or employee? Or any number of people with whom you have a purely professional relationship? Never mind someone with whom you have that weird therapeutic relationship. If he didn't want that information available, he shouldn't have it on the internet.
All of us should realize that we could be googled by just about anyone we know. I've googled myself. Nothing. :) But if I google my screen name and a few relevant topics, I cringe.
Plus... You know, when he got married that photo was probably in the paper. Well, maybe not the one with the dog. Along with all the personal information that accompanies those announcements. It's hardly a state secret.
It's perfectly normal to be upset that he's mad at you. I get frantic when my therapist is mad at me. It feels like all is wrong with the world. And if he's pleased with me, it feels as if everything will be ok. But don't generalize that to feeling like there's something wrong with you. Not over googling someone.
(((((Karen)))))
When is your next appointment?
Posted by Penny on January 23, 2004, at 8:26:26
In reply to Thanks all :), posted by Karen_kay on January 22, 2004, at 23:16:29
I completely agree with Dinah.
YES - therapists are human. Amazingly enough, some of us on here will be therapists some day - what does that say? And Bubba has a right to feel however he's gonna feel about whatever the situation is. BUT - he doesn't have a right to not put your needs before his in therapy. HE DOESN'T HAVE THAT RIGHT. THAT IS HIS JOB. If he can't do his job properly, he needs to get help.
I'm not saying you should have googled your therapist. I don't know that it's a thing that is 'right' or 'wrong', per se, it just is. I've done it! I'm not dxed BPD or anything like that - I just google everybody!!! My boss, my coworkers, guys I have dated, friends, and so on. Especially therapists and docs. How did I find out that my former pdoc had been accused once of using hyponosis to cause a patient to have false memories of sexual abuse? Because he certainly wouldn't have told me that. (He wasn't found guilty, by the way.) I also found out that my current pdoc had a juvenile patient who committed suicide shortly after being admitted to a residential facility, and my pdoc was named in the malpractice suit, even tho' he was no longer treating the kid at the time (of course, my pdoc has told me that psychiatrists get sued quite often, so he's pretty honest about that...). I have discovered quite a few things googling folks, including finding a high school friend I hadn't seen in 9 years or so who was living in the city next to mine. Googling, IMO, is okay.
And he wasn't hiding from you the fact that he was married. Okay, so he would have preferred that you didn't find out where he lived, or that you didn't see a pic of his wife and the dog. Fine. My former T wasn't happy that I found a pic of her hubby, or that I found her address (and knew the tax value of her home...). I DID drive by there. I didn't tell her, but I did drive by, though only once. I had to see. And it had nothing to do with my diagnosis. What it had to do with was quite a bit of pain I was experiencing - and in retrospect, while part of me wishes that I had respected her privacy and just not looked, part of me thinks that it was a good, but painful, learning experience. And, ya' know what? My former T told me that I wasn't the first patient she had who had found out where she lived - she had a patient who had confessed that to her before the internet became a factor. So he went to a lot more trouble than I did. And, as my T said, yes, she was upset (she was also naive about the capabilities of the internet, IMO), but she said she would get over it. And she told me that it was good to learn that someone could get upset with me without expressing rage (the way my parents did) and without abandoning me. And, I do think she got over it. Me? I'm still working on it, but she certainly didn't abandon me. We ended on a positive note, and that's been almost a year ago, and even after all of that happened, she still did her job as a therapist.
I just think, Karen, that Bubba is perhaps too inexperienced to deal effectively with his feelings over this in a way that is conducive to YOUR therapy. This is HIS issue, not yours. His reaction is a reflection of HIM, not of YOU. I know you might not want to accept that, but, trust me, it is the case. At 29, not too long out of grad school, I just don't see how he could not realize what might be out there about him and his wife.
My former T didn't share personal info with me unless necessary. So, by trying to find out more, I felt like I was doing something wrong b/c I knew it was info she wouldn't share with me voluntarily. Bubba had already shared a lot of things with you, so I just don't see what he has to be upset about. But, as I said, you're right - he's human. He has a right to feel however he's gonna feel. But he needs to put those feelings aside and use this as a learning experience for you - to get at the real reasons behind your interest in his personal life. This is a real opportunity for both of you in your therapy. He needs to get over it and use it to YOUR advantage.
And you can tell him I said so.
P
Posted by Poet on January 23, 2004, at 9:59:23
In reply to Thanks all :), posted by Karen_kay on January 22, 2004, at 23:16:29
Karen,
I agree with everyone else, you did nothing wrong. The phone book has been fair game for information since the first one was printed. Like your therapist never looked up his teachers when he was a kid? My ex boyfriend was listed in the phone book with his middle name and last name with no address for this reason.
I know Bubba's young, but that's no excuse for his behavior. The surgeon who removed my mother's cancerous kidney was 34. She calls him Dr. Cutie, and I met him, he is. He's also professional and skilled in his chosen profession. I think Bubba Bubba really needs some guidance in how to be a professional therapist.
My therapist told me crying is release of emotion, and shaking is the release of trauma. I wish I could make it all go away for you. I'm sending you white light of healing.
Please take care of yourself, keep posting, I'll help anyway I can.
Poet
Posted by Karen_kay on January 23, 2004, at 13:16:02
In reply to Re: Thanks all :) » Karen_kay, posted by Poet on January 23, 2004, at 9:59:23
I'm feeling better today, if you haven't already noticed :) So, I have a jerk for a therapist (and that was a joke). I understand he was upset. But, I'm sure he'll be OK about everything. I'm not entirely sure he'll trust me completely or that I'll ever trust him completely. I mean, he really flew off the handle and that made me upset. But, I do know that he has a history of not handling situations appropriately, like the time he put me in the hospital. We talked about that and he agreed he didn't handle that one well. But, at least I'm the first client he's ever put in the hospital...OMG!!!! What am I going?? I think this is called Gaslighting??? Where the therapist convinces the client that "she's" crazy... I swear, I'm going to make a film about this whole blasted so-called journey. "When you therapist has more issues than you do and you don't know it" Yes, I think that title might work fine. So, I see him bright and early Wednesday morning and I'm telling him that he needs to get things together. That he's always accusing me of "playing games" (Hello! That's why I'm there! For instance, I wanted to come right out and say, "You tell me too much about your personal life and so I worry about you", but I couldn't because I like hearing about his personal life. So, I said "I don't like your wife and he said, "Well, why would you be a better wife to me?" And he thought this would be a good excuse to build my self esteem but I wouldn't play the stupid game. So I kept saying, "Well, don't you think it's strange that I worry so much about you." as my way of trying to get him to THINK aobut why I would worry so much about him and HE JUST DIDN'T GET IT!!! OK, so I do play games. I jsut want people to read my mind! IS THAT TOO MUCH TO ASK, HONESTLY!!!!
And besides, why is it my responsibilty to tell him the things he does wrong anyway? Doesn't he have a supervisor for that? The last session he was talking way too much and I was getting annoyed! Talking about his daughter forever, but it would be rude to interupt and say, "HELLO! Let's get back to me now!" AGHHHHHHHHH!
OK, I'm going in on Wedsnesday and saying, "Listen, I want you to continue answering my questions. But, I don't want to hear aobut your personal life anymore. I don't want to hear about your daughter or your sleep schedule, or your fights with your wife, or any other crap that life throws your way. You're here to listen to me talk about the crap that life throws my way. Now, if you don't understand this, perhaps I should start seeing someone else? And if you are concerned about me looking in the phonebook at your phone number, maybe you could have an unlisted phone number? I have one. I assure you I'm not going to drive past your house or call you up. Thanks for making me feel so grat for being honest with you. Just another example of how understanding you are. We've worked through this before, and I assume we can work through this again. But, maybe you will one day learn to think before you react, DICK!"
Is that pleasant enough? I'm a sweetheart, aren't I? But, he did put me in the hospital...We've worked it out before and I'm sure we'll work it out again. but I'm glad I'm keeping track of all the mistakes he's made :) I'm even planning on who will be playing him in the movie...I'm telling you, I'm going to make the damn thing! (PLEASE... Let's just hope for a happy ending. Hmmm...maybe Karen and Bubba meet up 6 years later and get married?? (and that too was a joke!! NEVER!!!))
Posted by Miss Honeychurch on January 23, 2004, at 16:10:56
In reply to Hey, I love you all!, posted by Karen_kay on January 23, 2004, at 13:16:02
Whenever you want me to come kick his a**, just let me know!
Posted by antigua on January 23, 2004, at 19:16:32
In reply to Re: Thanks all :) » Karen_kay, posted by Poet on January 23, 2004, at 9:59:23
Really? shaking is a release of trauma? I've never heard that.
antigua
Posted by Elle2021 on January 23, 2004, at 23:25:52
In reply to I called Bubba :(, posted by Karen_kay on January 22, 2004, at 16:33:44
>And I don't think he's that handsome either. (Is that black and white thinking or just being realistic now? Stupid dx...Gets me every time.)
No, I think it's the idealizing/devaluing thing... Now you're devaluing.
Elle
Posted by noa on January 24, 2004, at 7:33:09
In reply to Bubba (my therapist) freaked out!!, posted by Karen_kay on January 22, 2004, at 9:07:57
Karen, I haven't read the whole thread yet, forgive me, but when I was reading your post, I really reacted to this:
"I found out that he does sit around the house in his underpants and frequently used to clean naked until he had kids."
Did he volunteer this info to you? Why?
To me it feels like way too much info, and it raises my "boundary crossing radar" signals a bit.
Posted by noa on January 24, 2004, at 7:40:35
In reply to Re: Bubba (my therapist) freaked out!! » Karen_kay, posted by Rigby on January 22, 2004, at 9:57:43
>Also, I am wondering about the cleaning naked disclosure. I think it's fine for you to push boundaries as much and as often as you feel like--it's *your* therapy. But why does Bubba give in so much? Maybe you're his favorite but most or least favorite I wonder how this helps you? Dunno. Just seemed off.
Rigby, the way you put this concern was more articulate than how I phrased it--but I'm glad I wasn't the only one to get that "uh-oh" feeling about his talking about the naked cleaning and sitting around in his underwear.
Come to think of it, he just found out that she knows his address. She told him she hasn't driven by, but obviously the thought crossed Karen's mind. (I had the same urge toward my therapist a number of years back, and I did drive by twice). By saying that he sits around the house in his underwear, isn't that kind of a major TEASE to say to a patient who might be fighting the urge to drive by his house?
I agree--he shouldn't be giving in and giving so much personal info--especially provocative things like underwear sitting and naked cleaning. It feels really inappropriate.
Posted by noa on January 24, 2004, at 8:07:26
In reply to Re: More quesions answered by Bubba » Karen_kay, posted by Penny on January 22, 2004, at 14:07:37
My therapist and I have run into each other twice at the drugstore. One time he was by himself, once with his teenage daughter. Both times were fine--he and I both said hello like when you bump into someone you know but not well enough that you're going to stop and gab with. Each time, he checked with me in the next session how I felt seeing him there, seeing his daughter, etc.
My therapist is extremely centered about this stuff. He doesn't disclose a lot about himself but does disclose some things when appropriate. I think I know more about his family situation only because a few years ago, his wife became very ill with cancer and then died, so he did feel he had to disclose some things to patients around that time.
He also has disclosed things when it helps to validate my perceptions of how he might have reacted to something I said. Sometimes I pick up on the slightest things--verbal and non-verbal--like many of us babblers do--and sometimes I think it is totally a reaction to me and what I said, etc. When I've talked about that with him, he has reacted thoughtfully, and sometimes disclosed what he realized he had brought to the situation that might have contributed to his phrasing something a certain way or having a subtle nonverbal reaction, etc. This is how he takes ownership of at least part of the interaction between us, so that I don't think it is all about me and my inner horribleness. I think he is really centered and honest and good at knowing what is his contribution to the therapy relationship. It is very "sane-making" in the sense of being the complete antithesis to the "crazy-making" interactions I had growing up. This has been an important aspect of the therapy.
Also, it is very safe and reassuring to have a therapist who has such a good sense of his boundaries. The occasional disclosure still doesn't cross the line, and he is good at monitoring with me how the boundary feels and if it's therpeutic. Where his boundary lines are is different than with my previous therapist (I moved cities), who also had good boundaries but was more "traditional" in not answering questions, etc., but his boundaries are still as strong and healthy.
But he has told me that he sees me as having good boundaries too, so I don't know if he would keep his boundary line in the same place for someone whom he was afraid would violate his privacy, etc. Even though I did drive by his house twice early in the therapy, I confessed as much immediately after I did it, and felt horribly ashamed. He did not freak out at all. He calmly processed with me what I'd been feeling and how it felt to drive by and helped me feel less ashamed about having been so curious, etc.
Posted by noa on January 24, 2004, at 8:24:56
In reply to I called Bubba :(, posted by Karen_kay on January 22, 2004, at 16:33:44
ARGH!
This frustrates me because as Rigby said--you're the patient, you can test the boundaries. BUt he is the therapist and he should know and be prepared to handle such testing.
YOu aren't the only one who might have crossed a boudnary! He disclosed some really inappropriate things about himself! As you said--
>"I have half a mind to tell him that if he didn't tell me so much about his stupid personal life I wouldn't be so interested."
As the therapist, HE is the one who is supposed to monitor the boundaries. If he is treating people with what he considers to be Borderline Personality Disorder, my goodness, don't you think he would know that these kinds of longings and testings would come up from time to time? Freaking out is not a therapeutic response. Telling your patient that you sit around in your underwear and used to clean naked is HIGHLY inappropriate, no matter how much questioning the patient does. And telling you that this is YOUR "BPD" issue is really not helpful. Using a diagnosis as a weapon or shield is not helpful. Sure, he may have felt anxious or nervous finding out you've been curious and dealing with the testing of boundaries, etc. Having normal human feelings is allowed in therapists, But the key thing is that therapists are supposed to be able to process their own feelings and not have them interfere with doing or saying what would be therapeutic for the patient, arent' they? Just because he gets a twinge of fear about you or anyone else knowing personal stuff about him doesn't mean he should be wielding a diagnosis as a weapon to blame you and therefore protect himself!!! A diagnosis is only as good as its ability to guide good treatment, not as a label to wonk someone with because you're mad at them for testing your personal boundaries.
Accusing you of boundary crossing for looking him up on the internet while he can't see all of his boundary violations by telling you inappropriate stuff about himself is classic "crazy making". Give me a break. If the info is published out there for the whole world to see, it stands to reason that a curious patient might look it up. But it isn't on the internet that he cleans naked or sits around the house in his underwear. So why the heck did he tell you that? And why can't he see that he is just feeding your curiosity more?
ARGHHH!!
This really bothers me because it doesn't seem he is skilled enough to deal with this in a way that will help you and not hurt you.
Posted by noa on January 24, 2004, at 8:40:31
In reply to Re: I called Bubba :( » Karen_kay, posted by Joslynn on January 22, 2004, at 16:54:11
>"It sounds like he is learning by experience where he wants his boundaries, which is something I wish for your sake he would have thought about in grad school. It seems like different therps have different styles, and now he is changing in mid-stream.
"As someone who grew up with the changing rules that are so common in alcoholic families, nothing is more annoying to me than relationships that arbitrarily change midstream! But that's me."
Joslynn--it's not just you! It's me, too! You're right about the changing rules and boundaries. And what's worse is that it all gets blamed on her.
Many of us grew up in families where the rules changed or wobbled or weren't clear until you after you broke them and found out the hard way with pain and suffering. Alcoholic or not. Crazy making families.
And that is one of the reasons why many of us might have difficulty with boundaries one way or another. Why we are in therapy.
I think therapists are supposed to do their best to not repeat this kind of crazy making boundary and rule changing. And to be able to deal with boundary testing, etc. from patients.
And if the rules have to change in a relationship, then the person needs to be totally upfront about it and let the other person know that the rules will be changing and where the boundary will be from now on, and of course to say why--and the why can't be a blaming thing like it's all the other person's fault! Rather than having the rules change all the time without ever acknowledging that they change, which, to me, is the most crazy-making aspect of it all.
Posted by noa on January 24, 2004, at 8:44:48
In reply to Re: 'Kay, I wanna have a lil' talk with Bubba... » Karen_kay, posted by Penny on January 22, 2004, at 19:07:26
>"What really makes me angry with him, however, is his 'testing' you by saying he didn't believe you didn't drive past his house to see your reaction. Uh...he's playing games now?"
Penny--I'm glad you picked up on this point. It irks me that a therapist would be manipulative with a patient like that.
Posted by noa on January 24, 2004, at 8:48:35
In reply to Re: I called Bubba :(, posted by Miss Honeychurch on January 22, 2004, at 21:42:06
>I don't understand how how he can ask you how big your boobs are, tell you basically that he masturbates to your and other patients images>
WHAT?????
This I hadn't seen before. Did he really say these things??????
OMG! Now I'm not just angry and concerned--I'm ALARMED!!!!!!
Posted by noa on January 24, 2004, at 8:56:41
In reply to Re: Thanks all :) » Karen_kay, posted by Dinah on January 23, 2004, at 3:25:06
I agree with Dinah--it is very normal to be upset that he reacted the way he did. And you didn't do anything wrong.
Sure, maybe you do want to work on your impulsivity. ANd maybe your curiosity is vulnerable to becoming more obsessive. Fine. Those might be issues to work on, but you need to know that it is also normal to be curious about your therapist, and to feel strong longing feelings and wanting to be with him.
And although it might be normal and human of him to get nervous at the idea of someone knowing where he lives, etc. but he needs to work that out for himself, not act it out against you. It is his issue that he so naively thought he could be totally invisible just because his wife has another name. And like others have said, he could have an unlisted number or have it listed without the street address, just the town or city.
Not to mention that he hasn't acknowledged that your feelings have been hurt by his reactions.
So now you are taking the blame. I think it's great to have turned it into wanting to work on some of the issues you mentioned, but please don't take the blame. I think you were manipulated into taking the blame.
Posted by Dinah on January 24, 2004, at 9:07:50
In reply to Re: More quesions answered by Bubba, posted by noa on January 24, 2004, at 8:07:26
I'm glad I am not the only client to actually do a drive by. I did one when I knew my therapist was out of town. He didn't get angry, and in fact didn't think it was even worth discussing much, other than to tell me that he wasn't angry about it.
But then, I guess he realized it was his responsibility for putting his home address on the receipts. And he knew that I was really really upset that he lived only a few streets away from me. I guess he realized (correctly) that I needed to know how many cross streets away he lived, and how likely/unlikely it was that we would pass each other on the street. Not very, you *can* get from his house to mine via backstreets, but there are so many easier ways to go that it seems *extremely* unlikely. So now I can garden in ratty shorts without worrying he'll drive by and see me in an awkward position.
Posted by gardenergirl on January 24, 2004, at 9:54:16
In reply to Hey, I love you all!, posted by Karen_kay on January 23, 2004, at 13:16:02
Karen_Kay,
I have been following this thread, and I've been avoiding commenting, since I am a trainee. Although I share some of the warning bells with others, I don't want to appear to be judgemental about another person's T. Besides, it seems like you are getting a lot of comments from knowlegeable people. It's also hard to understand what therapy is really like for another person unless you are in the room and in their head (as if... wouldn't that make some things easier?)I did want to support YOU in going through this. In some ways, I wonder if your most angry post here is something you should share with your T. You are absolutely right, he is disclosing personal information, and thus establishing loose boundaries. OF COURSE you would react to that. I wonder if you shared some of that with him and processed it more, if it would help?
Either way, you go girl,
gg
Posted by Karen_kay on January 24, 2004, at 11:40:46
In reply to Re: Hey, I love you all!, posted by gardenergirl on January 24, 2004, at 9:54:16
But, ummmmmmm... I would appreciate your imput!!! :) Seriously!!
I am going to talk with him. Thanks!
Posted by Karen_kay on January 24, 2004, at 11:43:38
In reply to Re: Hey, I love you all!, posted by gardenergirl on January 24, 2004, at 9:54:16
Pardon me for not making this brief, but I'm attempting to answer all questions with one post…
I honestly think the reason I ask him questions such as "Do you sit around the house in your underpants?" to create a human image of him in my head. I, up until the last session of course, didn't really think of him as human, he was more of some type of mystical creature (as stupid or child-like as this sounds). Now, I'm not thinking of him sitting around in his underwear, nor am I entertaining the thought of driving past his house to catch a glimpse of him in his underpants. I just want to know that he is like everyone else, who spills coffee on their clothes, sits around the house in their underwear, lets dishes pile up in the sink, forgets to let the dog out so he poops on the floor, ect. In my mind, I'm attempting to make him human, because I don't really think he is. I *know* he's human, but someone who's just there for me? That just doesn't seem right. I've never had that before. Now, he may have taken it out of context and interpreted the question wrong, adding the part about cleaning naked. I'm not picturing him cleaning naked either.
I also believe I'm testing my boundaries as well. "What will he answer and what won't he?" "What can I get away with, what can I not?"When I found out where he lived, I wanted to see his house, again just to find out what kind of house he lived in not to see him. But, the humiliation I would face upon being caught would be a far greater punishment than the reward of seeing his house. Since I made the decision to not do the drive by, I haven't even had the urge to go past his house again. Luckily, I don't live in the neighborhood, so I couldn't even be accused of driving by. And I'm proud that I don't even have the desire to drive past his house. I think it just has to do with the fact that I don't really have as much of a crush on him as I used to. I know I joke about it, but it's the truth.
And the reason I ask him personal questions about sex is to find out whether certain things are normal and OK. And it honestly has helped me. I know that there is a possibility he has crossed boundaries, but isn't that beneficial to the client at times? With him giving me permission to think about whomever I want during sex, I had good results. I just needed permission (keep in mind I do have quite a few sexual issues). So, I don't think the whole "Why do you want to know that" bit would quite work for me.
And the examples Miss Honey stated I could clear up in a few minutes. The bra size: I kept complaining that my breasts were too small, which they aren't noticeably small. He kept saying that there isn't anything wrong with them. I continued complaining and finally he asked what my bra size was. I said 36 C. When I said that, it made me realize that they weren't an A cup. I haven't complained much since nor have I thought that they really are too small. (Though if I were rich I'd still have surgery :) I guess if you say things out loud it makes you think about it...
I am going to talk to Bubba about his reaction. I actually had a dream about him, and I only remember important dreams. He was spouting something off and it was somewhat long psychobabble that didn't pertain to me and he said John (insignificant name). So I said "John?" And he said, "Bob?" in a defensive tone. And I said, "Bob?" And he was really defensive and said, "I really don't know what Roy has to do with this." I'm going to tell him about this dream and see what he has to say. I'm hoping he gets it. Oh God! I'm so hoping he gets it!!!!! It just shows that I feel like he doesn't listen to me and he gets super defensive (as I knew he would at the last session) and he takes everything I say and changes it around! Good grief! He's making me crazy and I ain't datin him! I have a boyfriend to drive me crazy. Bubba's supposed to make me sane. Is there something wrong with this picture? (That's a rhetorical question, I'm sure you figured out J)
It makes perfect sense to me.
BTW, I asked him if he ever sits around the house in his underpants. He said yes, and then added that he used to clean the house naked, much to the distaste of his wife, until he had children.
I also called a friend, who admitted to Googling several crushes, profs, ect. She's never been in therapy and says she agrees I did nothing wrong. I also agree.
He admitted, before seeing the picture that he has done online searches for ex-girlfriends. He even admitted to calling her workplace to make sure that she's doing fine. I think his reaction was based more on fear that other people have access to this information, not me. It still just puts me in an awkward position of having to defend myself and motivations. I don't want him to stop answering my question, I like them. I just want his self-disclosure to be on my terms. Though I know it can't be. So, I feel that I have to point it out to him, like it's my job. "Oh, well if you want to be a good therapist, maybe you shouldn't answer so many questions. Maybe it wouldn't be so helpful for future clients to answer so many personal questions." Again, shouldn't he have a supervisor for this sh**? I just worry about him being a good therapist too much. And I honestly believe he is a good therapist. But I'm still making the movie. Will you all come to see it? I'll still cast someone cute to play him, even if in the end I think he's completely disgusting!
Posted by Catmom on January 24, 2004, at 23:28:39
In reply to Sorry if eyes go buggy, doozie here!, posted by Karen_kay on January 24, 2004, at 11:43:38
Karen, You are in a really complicated situation wtih Bubba. That's not a bad thing, in my opinion. We can end up learning a whole lot about ourselves if we allow ourselved to acknowledge into consciousness fantasties about the therapist. It also can illuminate your own concerns if you analyze the particular things you WANT to know.
On the other hand, some of the stuff you've posted about Bubba make me fear that he's not being consistent with you. I don't know that perfect 100% consistency is ever possible: we don't want an automatic machine as a therapist.
I think that B's flirtations with you (and I would call his manner in at least some of the instances you've described inappropriately seductive (although maybe I'm just being a prude).
We need to navigate through a world of mixed messages and ambiguities. It's best, I feel, if the therpist and his or her office "frame" are consistent, appropriate, and reassuring without provoking more inconsistency.
I hope that you find this a support for you because that's what I am hoping to do: offer my support for you to bring up whatever thoughts, desires, etc. you might have.
Also I agree that this is an age when so many people are googling so many others, that I don't think it's surprising, inappropriate, or wrong. Google is a public record; and I believe that people CAN remove some google references if they want to do so.
Best of luck to you; I can certainly empathize with all you are going through.
Posted by pegasus on January 25, 2004, at 22:04:45
In reply to Sorry if eyes go buggy, doozie here!, posted by Karen_kay on January 24, 2004, at 11:43:38
Karen, This does sound complicated, but I'm glad you added your latest post. When you explain it all like you did there, Bubba sounds much more reasonable. A little green, for sure, but basically good intentions and not wildly inappropriated.
When you were (rhetorically) asking whether he had a supervisor for this stuff, I started thinking that maybe you should ask him about that. I mean, I'm sure he has one, but I think you have some good feedback for him about things he ought to bring up with his supervisor. Like the statements about cleaning the house naked, and freaking out about being googled (which is totally his deal, by the way. Everyone googles everyone these days. And all of his clients have googled him and looked up his phone number in the book by now. He needs to deal with *that* reality for sure!).
- p
Posted by gardenergirl on January 26, 2004, at 5:37:14
In reply to Re: Sorry if eyes go buggy, doozie here!, posted by pegasus on January 25, 2004, at 22:04:45
Karen_Kay,
Thanks for reassuring me about posting.
Your latest post really explained stuff for me. One of the things we are taught in school is that self-disclosure should only be done for a specific, therapeutic reason. We are cautioned to always ask ourselves first, "is this for me or for the client?" I know I have been guilty of too much self-disclosure in the past that was more for my own gratification than for the client's benefit. (Although I am much too repressed to ever disclose anything sexual...not even to my T yet.) But it seems like your T had reasons for what he said.
So I feel a little better about your T now that you have explained. It still seems like a very fine line that exists between you two, one that would be easy to cross. I agree with Catmom, that keeping the therapeutic frame consistent is SO important, and your T may be somewhat inconsistent. I also think the 10:30 pm phone call is questionable.
You've really got a lot to deal with here. But only you and your T can ever really know what the relationship is like. One thing I rely on is my gut. Does your gut say that he is crossing boundaries too often? Is it affecting your wellbeing?
I give you a lot of credit for your coping with this and use of support. I hope that a frank talk with your T will help smooth out some of the inconsistencies so you can concentrate on you more and less on his behavior.
BTW, I googled my name. Lots of porn star sites. I guess I'm famous! Pretty ironic, considering some of my hangups!
Take care,
gg
This is the end of the thread.
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