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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 24 of 24. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by daisym on February 22, 2005, at 20:31:53
Why is it that I can pick up instantly on the little tiny things during a session and yet miss the big obvious statements?
Yesterday I "heard" what I considered lots of hints that my therapist needed a rest, that he didn't want to hear about the bad stuff and that he was sorry that I had a tough weekend but he was glad I hadn't called. I felt panicked and lost and I knew I was furious when I left but I wasn't sure why.
I let three messages today --
"I'm a wreck"
"I'm fine"
"I lied. I'm a wreck."When he called, I was pretty honest about why I was in such a state. I told him flat out that it felt like he wasn't there yesterday, that I felt alone and disconnected and that the intensity of my feelings scared the hell out of me. He walked back with me through the session and acknowledged all of the little things and offered alternative explanations, but the whole time kept saying, "I can see how you would take it like that." Finally he said, "what about when I said I was ready to hear more details when you were ready to tell me. Or when I asked if you had memories this weekend and wanted to share them? Or when I told you I thought it was best that you share stuff? Does any of that count?" He asked in a really soft, gentle way, not defensively at all. He also said it was OK for me to be furious with him, even if I didn't know why.
We figured a lot of stuff out. He made me feel better. But I'm still afraid if the intensity of these feelings. He said it often feels like I want something from him but I don't say what...or I can't articulate it. He said he is OK with that too...but he wants me to know that he expects this level of intensity and it is perfectly OK.
I feel like a brat. Why can't I hear (and believe) the big statements? Does anyone else do this?
Posted by Dinah on February 22, 2005, at 22:03:47
In reply to Making mountains out of mole hills, posted by daisym on February 22, 2005, at 20:31:53
My therapist would probably say I do that all the time. So would my husband, probably.
Do you think it has anything to do with the fact that it made more sense growing up to trust our own take on reality than it did to trust what others told us?
I know in my case, it'd help if my therapist would tell me more, so I didn't feel like I needed to read the signs. Like I usually know he's annoyed with me before he'll admit it, maybe before he'll admit it to himself.
It's a good skill in many ways, Daisy. What's hard is knowing when you don't need to use it.
Posted by mair on February 22, 2005, at 22:12:56
In reply to Re: Making mountains out of mole hills » daisym, posted by Dinah on February 22, 2005, at 22:03:47
It's interesting what we choose to hear and what we filter out - how we can seize so strongly on one small slight while ignoring the overall tone of the session.
I absolutely do this. I don't know if we're just hyper sensitive or overwelmingly insecure. Or maybe it's that your T now is the one person you absolutely have to be able to depend on and that seems shaky. I also think with me, there's always alot of projection at work. I can't believe that she isn't finding me as tiresome as I think I am.
I think it's wonderful though that you can check this out with him - and quickly. I think ultimately you make yourself less miserable than if you just sat on those feelings until the next session.
Mair
Posted by mair on February 22, 2005, at 22:14:04
In reply to Re: Making mountains out of mole hills » Dinah, posted by mair on February 22, 2005, at 22:12:56
Posted by fallsfall on February 22, 2005, at 22:24:39
In reply to Making mountains out of mole hills, posted by daisym on February 22, 2005, at 20:31:53
I'm really glad the two of you talked about this. And they do always say that if there is a discrepancy between non-verbal communication and verbal communication that we believe the non-verbal.
I wish for you that, in the future, the non-verbal messages that are sent to you will never be as negative as those you received as a child. Events like this are what will allow you to believe that the future *can* be different from the past. That people *aren't* all like those who let you down before. Doesn't that make the future look a little brighter?
Posted by Speaker on February 22, 2005, at 23:20:35
In reply to Re: Making mountains out of mole hills » daisym, posted by fallsfall on February 22, 2005, at 22:24:39
Daisy,
You have been on my mind a lot lately. I have been wondering how things at home are going and how your husband is doing...then I read your post. You have so much going on I can't imagine I could hear anything if it were me. I think when life is at hand we hear and see things in a clearer way than any other time...and yet people are often confusing. I know you have been working very hard in therapy with the csa and then with what is going on in your life I would be looking for any little sign that someone that is helping me is ready to dump me...and yet the big signs say they are still there and ready to help :). Did you get all that! You continue to be in my prayers and I know your T isn't tired of you...maybe just tired!
(((((Daisy)))))
Marie
Posted by daisym on February 23, 2005, at 0:29:38
In reply to Re: Making mountains out of mole hills » daisym, posted by Dinah on February 22, 2005, at 22:03:47
I guess I'm not use to probing this hard into someone else's feelings. Usually I get a good sense of where someone is and I can manuever pretty well to meet their needs. Since this is about me, he doesn't share his needs with me. He admits to getting frustrated when he can't reach me, when I'm tangled up or pulling away. But he says the frustration is around wanting to re-establish the connection so we have the same goal.
It's like the sensitivity factor has been knocked up 1000 times stronger and I'm clearly devastated by the slightest waver. He tells me this is old, that I'm trying to predict the future based on my perceptions of his feelings.
I'm driving myself crazy.
Posted by daisym on February 23, 2005, at 0:35:45
In reply to Re: Making mountains out of mole hills » Dinah, posted by mair on February 22, 2005, at 22:12:56
I sometimes think I should sit on things longer. Maybe they would dissipate. I can't seem to control this need to check things out with him, to try to put right whatever feels wrong. (Hey, I need Quantum Leap!)
I think you are right in that I feel overwhelmingly insecure. I try to hard not to. He gives me no reason to. I know there are a lot of projected feelings in play here. But I don't know what to do about them.
I've been asking myself if I'm not throwing up these things to deflect from the memories and stories we've been talking about. That would be a sneaky thing for my unconscious to do.
Posted by daisym on February 23, 2005, at 0:48:46
In reply to Re: Making mountains out of mole hills » daisym, posted by fallsfall on February 22, 2005, at 22:24:39
Honestly Falls, I'm questioning what I have hope for in the future.
Everything feels so intense and surreal. I'm freaked out again by the intensity of my feelings and how sensitive to everything I am. This just isn't how I know myself. And, not only am I easily upset by my therapist and therapy sessions, but I can't seem to hold the upset in. I TELL HIM. Sheesh. I barely tell my husband when I'm mad at him.
I have this image of him hanging up after a phone conversation with me, staring at the phone, shaking his head, thinking, "silly woman. She's just going to have to learn that the only one who can make this better is her. I'm just the guide."
What is really scary is that he recognizes that I want something from him...but what do I really want? I really don't know. Am I wishing for something completely impossible? I think I feel a secret hope creeping that he can make a difference and I immediately tell myself how dangerous this hope is.
I want to ask him if this intensity is common or have I become completely obsessed and I can't see it? And if I am obsessed, what does that mean? I don't want a sexual relationship. I don't have fantasies of life outside the therapy room. So what is this about?
I said it before, I'm driving myself crazy.
Posted by daisym on February 23, 2005, at 0:55:53
In reply to Re: Making mountains out of mole hills, posted by Speaker on February 22, 2005, at 23:20:35
Thanks for the prayers, Marie. We can use them.
Life is up and down. The illness is background noise most of the time, we live around it. The behaviors are so much harder to cope with. It triggers old feelings of fear and abandonment. I think the timing for all of this is bad, but I know why it is coming up and out now.
Isn't it amazing how we recreate old patterns, relive old scripts? Yes, I think I'm hearing what I expect to hear, not what is really being said. I also think I'm pushing and testing to see if my therapist will get mad or upset with me. I really do feel bratty with him right now -- I want what I want and I don't want to be told "no". I find that I think he should be able to read my mind and pick up on little hints and when he doesn't, I'm destroyed. I KNOW this is old -- it is replaying what I wish and wanted from my mother. I wanted her to see what was happening without me telling her. I wish naming it, would make me stop doing it!
I hope things get better between you and your therapist soon. It shouldn't be this hard, should it?
Posted by rs on February 23, 2005, at 6:05:34
In reply to Re: Making mountains out of mole hills » fallsfall, posted by daisym on February 23, 2005, at 0:48:46
Hi Daisy. It has been a long time since I have posted. Many of you probably do not even know me but have posted in the past. Guess just feel like budding in here.
Daisy I have been following your posts. Your a strong person. Your question What are you looking for? May I share?
Could it be you want your T to care for you and make you feel special? The pain carried from childhood when no one cared hurts. You are sharing your deepest most painful secrect and emotions with this person. There may be a small Daisy that wants this. It is ok. Your T sounds like mine in many ways. Oh how some small parts want to betaken care of, feel special and are needy. My T tells me that we are special and he cares. It is ok. Really. I used to have major problem accepting this but slowly feeling he does care and it is ok. Does this make any sense? Hope it was ok to just jump in.
Daisy your T cares please try to accept that. I know that is a hard one. Keep up the good work. He is there for you and will not leave.
Hi Fallsfall
Posted by fallsfall on February 23, 2005, at 7:26:59
In reply to Re: Making mountains out of mole hills » Speaker, posted by daisym on February 23, 2005, at 0:55:53
I guess I'm not use to probing this hard into someone else's feelings. Usually I get a good sense of where someone is and I can manuever pretty well to meet their needs. Since this is about me, he doesn't share his needs with me. He admits to getting frustrated when he can't reach me, when I'm tangled up or pulling away. But he says the frustration is around wanting to re-establish the connection so we have the same goal.
*** You are used to other people not recognizing your feelings. And all you have wanted in the past is to figure out how you can make someone else's feelings "OK". This time, instead of being asked to change to "manipulate" someone else's feelings (to make them "happy") you are being asked just to recognize them.
It's like the sensitivity factor has been knocked up 1000 times stronger and I'm clearly devastated by the slightest waver. He tells me this is old, that I'm trying to predict the future based on my perceptions of his feelings.
*** When my feelings are 1000 times stronger than makes sense, that is how I know it is "old".I sometimes think I should sit on things longer. Maybe they would dissipate. I can't seem to control this need to check things out with him, to try to put right whatever feels wrong. (Hey, I need Quantum Leap!)
*** Sitting on things is what you have always done in the past. You sit on your uncomfortable feelings so that you don't end up inconveniencing the other person. Talking about these things is exactly what you need to be doing. This is how you will see that your assumptions (which were valid in the past) are not valid this time. This is how you learn that the whole world is not like the world you grew up in. This *IS* "working through".
I think you are right in that I feel overwhelmingly insecure. I try to hard not to. He gives me no reason to. I know there are a lot of projected feelings in play here. But I don't know what to do about them.
*** You are doing exactly the right thing. By asking about these things you find out how much of your perception is real, and how much of it is projection. Having him tell you honestly how he is feeling is the way you find out what is real.
I've been asking myself if I'm not throwing up these things to deflect from the memories and stories we've been talking about. That would be a sneaky thing for my unconscious to do.
*** This could be true. Yes, our unconsciouses are quite sneaky.
Honestly Falls, I'm questioning what I have hope for in the future.
*** (((((...Daisy)))))...
Everything feels so intense and surreal. I'm freaked out again by the intensity of my feelings and how sensitive to everything I am. This just isn't how I know myself. And, not only am I easily upset by my therapist and therapy sessions, but I can't seem to hold the upset in. I TELL HIM. Sheesh. I barely tell my husband when I'm mad at him.
*** And how successful has this been with your husband???
I have this image of him hanging up after a phone conversation with me, staring at the phone, shaking his head, thinking, "silly woman. She's just going to have to learn that the only one who can make this better is her. I'm just the guide."
*** As a child you learned that you were alone. That noone would rescue you. You can't believe that anyone *can* make a difference. This is one of the times when I think you are projecting.
What is really scary is that he recognizes that I want something from him...but what do I really want? I really don't know. Am I wishing for something completely impossible? I think I feel a secret hope creeping that he can make a difference and I immediately tell myself how dangerous this hope is.
*** You are afraid to hope that he *can* make a difference, because you are afraid that he can, but he *won't*. It's OK to not know what you want. Over time, it will become clear.
I want to ask him if this intensity is common or have I become completely obsessed and I can't see it? And if I am obsessed, what does that mean? I don't want a sexual relationship. I don't have fantasies of life outside the therapy room. So what is this about?
*** The intensity is because you are feeling "old" feelings. The obsession is because the old feelings are incredibly painful - and somewhere, you do believe that things can get better. What is it about? It is about recognizing that someone may actually care about how you feel about something. That your viewpoint just might be valid, that it might matter. You have fantasies of mattering.
I said it before, I'm driving myself crazy.
*** This work that you are doing right now - checking everything out with him, feeling so intensely - is what will make a difference. This is "working through". When I have done this, it has brought great relief. Can you tell yourself that this is the right thing for you to be doing - can you trust him to guide you? You don't have to understand it right now. You just have to have some faith that the process will be beneficial in the long run.
I really do feel bratty with him right now -- I want what I want and I don't want to be told "no". I find that I think he should be able to read my mind and pick up on little hints and when he doesn't, I'm destroyed. I KNOW this is old -- it is replaying what I wish and wanted from my mother. I wanted her to see what was happening without me telling her. I wish naming it, would make me stop doing it!
*** Eventually naming it will help you stop doing it. Trust the process.
It shouldn't be this hard, should it?
*** But the fact of the matter is that it *IS* this hard. But the rewards will be of the same magnitide as the pain. Keep the faith.
Posted by Daisym on February 23, 2005, at 10:30:16
In reply to Re: Making mountains out of mole hills, posted by rs on February 23, 2005, at 6:05:34
Hi rs, nice to see you. Always OK for you to jump in.
I think you've hit a big part of it. I want to be special but being special in the past has had strings attached and so this want is frightening. I trust him...I don't trust me.
I'll try to keep in mind what you said about caring. It doesn't feel OK somehow to want that.
Hope you are well.
Daisy
Posted by B2chica on February 23, 2005, at 11:53:51
In reply to Making mountains out of mole hills, posted by daisym on February 22, 2005, at 20:31:53
daisy.
just wanted to say your thread has eased some tension. i'm still not feeling 'trusting' of myself for the weekend.
-but the expression you have of your emotions, knowing you have these feelings makes me feel not so alone in my feelings of intensity -even though they are different. i think sometimes my thoughts of suicide, once depression relieves, becomes more of an ocd thing and i then 'recreate' this mountain from intensity. and 'no way out' feelings. then feeling more trapped and depression comes again. like this cycle.
i am feeling a little better today (at least i'm not breaking down every 15 min.).-i just had to butt in, sorry.
-somehow the contents and you many replies fit for me.
b2c.
Posted by daisym on February 23, 2005, at 15:59:17
In reply to Re: Making mountains out of mole hills » daisym, posted by B2chica on February 23, 2005, at 11:53:51
I'm glad it fit for you. No problem with butting in. I love that about Babble.
I think you can begin to loop your thoughts and drive yourself a little crazy. Suicidal ones included. I read somewhere that once you've considered the idea as a way out, you never take it off your list again. How sad is that? I know it to be true for me, but I fight back against it. Some nights it is harder than others.
Hang in there.
Hugs, Daisy
Posted by daisym on February 24, 2005, at 0:34:32
In reply to Re: Making mole hills - slight trigger » B2chica, posted by daisym on February 23, 2005, at 15:59:17
So today I took in this thread. Pretty much all of it. I read to him my original post and then the follow up stuff. I made myself be brutally honest of the intensity of my feelings. And I wanted to die of embarrassment every minute of telling him. I said, "I'm not going to turn into Kathy Bates, I swear. But I can't get these feelings to go away." I made it clear that the feelings weren't sexual in anyway. (yes, more intensely embarressing questions.)
We talked about separation anxiety and I said it should never be allowed to happen to adults. It is mind-blowingly painful. I'll never look at another toddler crying for her mother the same way again. I fell apart when he agreed with what Falls said about wanting to matter. I do want to matter to him -- in almost a desperate way. And then I went quiet and held my breath.
He asked me what I expected him to say -- so I said this is where he tells me I have to be transfered, that I've gone over the top. He just shook his head and said, "Nope." After much poking and prodding he finally told me that what I was feeling was "normal and expected" and he does want to hear about it. That I'm not "scary" and he is really Ok with how we are working together. He even said, "why wouldn't you want to matter? Of course you want that."
We talked a lot about the fear of caring for someone and having them care about you. About strings that are often attached to relationships and power differentials. And we talked about social messages of right and wrong, especially as they relate to therapy and therapists. It was a really good conversation.
And I'm calmer than I was. But I'm still having a hard time with this. It still feels out of control and wrong. Needing and wanting so much attention -- this from the person who doesn't draw attention to herself unless I can completely control the situation. It gets easier right? Eventually these feelings come back down into to normal range? He tells me they ease off -- WHEN!!!??
Posted by rs on February 24, 2005, at 6:05:11
In reply to From Molehill to Kathy Bates, posted by daisym on February 24, 2005, at 0:34:32
Hi Daisy me again. I enjoy posting to you because we have much in common when it comes to therapy.
Daisy I have the same issues with therapy. Being DID have many small parts that are needy, jealous etc. There was so much time could not accept that T cared. Well finally slowly am saying hey he does care and it is ok. T tells me all the time that special and he cares. Fighting it in many different ways with different feelings. Went to session the other day and when got home felt different. Did not have that feeling of missing t and being lonely with it all. In there somplace was yes he cares and we are special. What a difference.
Daisy let him care. Let him in. Let him help you. You were hurt and did not get this. Today you deserve with little Daisy. Honeslty slowly you will feel it and brings the whole realtionship together. I remember asking my T how many people he sees in one day. Many. Then I said how can you share that much caring with all. He response was it is different. Daisy he cares for me. He accepts me. It is ok if I am needy it is ok that small parts are needy hurt etc.
Please let him care. You are worth it and tell yourself that. Please. Lots of hugs if ok.
Sorry about the typing. Again hope it is ok to jump in here.
Posted by fallsfall on February 24, 2005, at 8:11:14
In reply to Re: From Molehill to Kathy Bates, posted by rs on February 24, 2005, at 6:05:11
I'm so glad things are getting easier for you, rs.
Falls.
Posted by littleone on February 24, 2005, at 14:21:54
In reply to Re: From Molehill to Kathy Bates, posted by rs on February 24, 2005, at 6:05:11
> I remember asking my T how many people he sees in one day. Many. Then I said how can you share that much caring with all. He response was it is different.
Hi rs, could you please explain what he meant by "it is different"? Does he mean that it's not a case where he has a limited pool of caring to be dished out sparingly, that it doesn't work that way? Or did he mean something else?
Posted by Aphrodite on February 24, 2005, at 14:33:08
In reply to Re: Making mountains out of mole hills » Speaker, posted by daisym on February 23, 2005, at 0:55:53
>
> Isn't it amazing how we recreate old patterns, relive old scripts? Yes, I think I'm hearing what I expect to hear, not what is really being said. I also think I'm pushing and testing to see if my therapist will get mad or upset with me. I really do feel bratty with him right now -- I want what I want and I don't want to be told "no". I find that I think he should be able to read my mind and pick up on little hints and when he doesn't, I'm destroyed. I KNOW this is old -- it is replaying what I wish and wanted from my mother. I wanted her to see what was happening without me telling her. I wish naming it, would make me stop doing it!
>I think it sounds like great progress, though painful, to let little Daisy be who she really is and not just a good girl. Kids are both sweet and bratty and you are probably finding it hard to believe you can be lovable that way -- for who you are not for what you can give or do to please people.
I just started telling and showing a little of my "inner brat" to my T, and he told me he liked her for being "warm and spicy". I just loved that description because I have never been complimented for my . . . um . . . "spiciness". It's incredibly healing to have that full acceptance.
I also was telling him how transparent I thought I was when I was little and was angry when no one noticed. He tells me what I have to learn is to *tell* and to ask for what I need. It's such a hard thing when no one was attuned enough to "get it" when we needed them to.
I'm so sorry for the struggle you're going through.
Posted by Aphrodite on February 24, 2005, at 14:34:02
In reply to Re: Making mountains out of mole hills, posted by Aphrodite on February 24, 2005, at 14:33:08
Posted by rs on February 24, 2005, at 16:43:55
In reply to Re: From Molehill to Kathy Bates » rs, posted by littleone on February 24, 2005, at 14:21:54
He explained that he cares for clients in different ways. I have not doubt now that he cares and wants to be here no matter what. Took a long time and hard work to be where am today. He knows and understands what need. There may be some T that disagree with his way of doing therapy but it is working here. Make sense now?
Posted by rs on February 24, 2005, at 16:45:22
In reply to Re: From Molehill to Kathy Bates » rs, posted by fallsfall on February 24, 2005, at 8:11:14
Oh do you remember when started to see this T? If not mistaken both of us started with new T at the same time. You were there. Thanks
Posted by littleone on February 24, 2005, at 21:21:21
In reply to From Molehill to Kathy Bates, posted by daisym on February 24, 2005, at 0:34:32
> After much poking and prodding he finally told me that what I was feeling was "normal and expected" and he does want to hear about it. That I'm not "scary" and he is really Ok with how we are working together.
Daisy, you are one of the most un-scariest people I know. Was Adult Daisy insulted by that? I can imagine that Adult Daisy could be ruthless if need be. But not scary.
And I could also imagine that some of that ruthlessness could drift over to little Daisy. But in an innocent way. Like in the form of determination. Or like clinging to your T. But that certainly doesn't *make* little Daisy ruthless or scary.
And by the way, neither adult or little Daisy look anything like Kathy Bates in my eyes :)
Oh, and re your mountians out of mole hills, I definately do that too. Like I find stuff to prove my beliefs and completely turn a blind eye (unconciously of course) to anything that could question or disprove the belief.
Think of how wonderful life would be if all your beliefs were positive (eg the world is a nice place to be) and you only saw/heard/read things that proved those positive beliefs. *sigh*.
This is the end of the thread.
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