![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 35. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Pfinstegg on November 11, 2005, at 20:22:50
I haven't been posting lately here, because therapy has been so hard for the past year that I hardly knew what to say about it. But now things are, for the moment, anyway, so much better. I feel I can really say anything to him, - and I do! I also have begun feeling truly and securely attached to him. I know he won't abandon me, and.somehow, the attachment seems to go both ways. He has always been extremely warm and understanding, and such a gentle, yet intently focussed listener, but now I feel that we have a so much deeper sense of mutual trust. Just today, I told him that I felt I had "improved" in that I didn't keep giving things to him- like photos and writings. He said, " but you give me such a lot- by being my patient". I was so thrilled that he would say something so wonderful! And this is after a year of very intense, often negative, rage-filled transferences- what he calls "traumatic tranferences"- which he expects with people who have been abused. I have really been just AWFUL to him for a whole year, and he has never taken it personally- just always remained very warm, accepting, and interested in having me go even further into my rage and hate. Now these feelings have calmed down quite a bit; I'm sure it's because of his having remained so accepting and understanding through it all. I think I've sort of taken his view of me inside me, and am feeling much kinder and more accepting of myself. It's taken more than two and a half years of going every day to get this far, but it's SO wonderful- just beyond my ability to express adequately.
But, I haven't gotten to the real subject of my post, which is that a part of me is certain that my father molested me when I was six years old, and another part of me is equally certain that it never happened. (The six-year old knows it happened, but the adult thinks it never did). It comes up vividly in dreams, in drawings with the art therapist, and in many sudden slips of the tongue in my analyst's office. But the whole thing is kind of like Schrodinger's Cat in quantum mechanics- both dead and alive at the same time. Learning to accept that all of me may never know makes me very uneasy, but my analyst says that memory is so complex, and still not very well understood, and that I need to keep becoming more comfortable with the concept that my different ego states in fact may have differing memories and experiences. He seems to especially like it when he sees these different ego states appear in the same session, trying to share information and feelings with one another. We both hope that all of me will eventually know, but that's still in the future. A very long way of asking: is anyone else having an experience like this?
Posted by daisym on November 12, 2005, at 1:10:01
In reply to Knowing and not knowing..., posted by Pfinstegg on November 11, 2005, at 20:22:50
I'm glad you've settled back into a secure place with your therapist. I think I understand the hostility you described, I've been in and out of this place myself a lot lately. It is difficult to be angry at the person you want to help you.
I think holding memories in different parts of yourself is common, and it does make us question what is real -- because it is so incomprehensible. I'm suddenly having a very hard time accepting that all this happened to me. I want it all to be a nightmare. I find myself flipping back and forth between belief and disbelief as I remember more truth. I keep asking where all this has been hiding -- how could I not have known the full extent?
And I think part of the resistance is to realizing how much fantasy I’ve held onto about my childhood. And about how much effect it has had on me. I think I believed that although I couldn’t stop what was happening to my body, I could preserve my “real” self from it…I could float away and not have it effect or invade my mind. Who I was, was separate from the body being used, hurt, or humiliated by someone else. Discovering that indeed I am damaged, that I was harmed and I was invaded, both mentally and physically is devastating. I wanted to believe that my life is in my control and that I was strong enough to not feel the effects of this abuse. I don’t want to be motivated by forces outside of my awareness, or by impulses I can’t resist. I’ve stopped trusting that my perceptions are correct, and that my thoughts are based fully in reality. For someone who needs to be so fully in control, who has set up her life to be predictable, safe and unemotional, this is terrifying.
I think the younger parts of me are holding tightly onto a wish or a fantasy of parents who were basically good and loving. And it is amazingly painful to let go of the fantasy of eventually being rescued. There are parts of me that are still waiting for this to happen. How can I give up this hope? It is easier to believe it all never happened.
I ask myself how can I be seeking validation for all these experiences and feelings, and yet keep thinking “maybe it wasn’t really so bad?” Am I hoping that if it wasn’t so bad, then the present pain will magically vanish? Or is the truth that, if I wasn’t loved as a child, and therefore wasn’t lovable, I’m afraid I’m not lovable now? And the adult hates the child who holds these memories and has disrupted life so badly for the past two years.
I tell the younger parts they must wait for therapy, but they don’t want to. There are middle of the night dialogs again, fights about who had it worse, fights about who needs my therapist more and despair of ever silencing all the voices. I know this is somewhat ridiculous, to still be allowing parts to carry different experiences. I say out loud I want to own my own experiences but I’m not sure I do. Otherwise why would I keep these things still so separate? I need to keep asking and hearing that what happened really does meet the requirements of being defined as traumatic. And I’m allowed to feel this bad about it.I have this notion that when I'm telling stories in therapy that I'm not working hard on stuff, I'm wallowing. Again, I think it is the adult saying, "if we don't say it out loud it isn't true, so shut up already." And at the exact same time the adult knows she needs to follow the rules of therapy which are to just say what is on your mind, to get it out into the room and talk about it.
My therapist just keeps reassuring me that this is part of the process. That eventually everything will be integrated, memories, voices and feelings. But it isn't quick work, is it? I think your subject line says it all -- it is about knowing and not knowing at the same time.
Posted by Annierose on November 12, 2005, at 7:02:39
In reply to Knowing and not knowing..., posted by Pfinstegg on November 11, 2005, at 20:22:50
I may not be answering your question directly, but I do fully understand the emotional aspect you are describing. There is no csa in my background, just total emotional abandonment. I have a difficult time fully grasping the emotional toll not having anyone "there" for me. I minimize or dismiss the pain. My T says that served me well in childhood. A little girl needs to put that pain aside. Now, in the safety of my T's office, this is the time to put words to those feelings & expereinces and in essence, re-live those moments. That is where I am at now in therapy and I hate it. Knowing and not knowing ... and maybe, not wanting to know because it's too painful. Standing on the edge of this murky lake and somebody is asking me to go for a swim; I'd rather not.
Do you find your transference feelings w/your therapist so painful? By that I mean, she is the center of my emotional world right now. It seems so irrational. Yesterday she commented, "It seems very rational to me. But I can feel your conflict. Your brain is telling you that it can trust me and share everything, but your heart isn't so sure." Quickly I replied, "I feel the opposite. My heart loves and cares about you, but my brain keeps searching for reasons not to talk." She didn't quite get the difference, said something about different labels for the same point. I'm wandering in a different direction, sorry. I think it's wonderful that you were able to work through some transference issues with your T. As I'm slowly delving into this hard stuff, I'm finding it impossible to sit up and do the work. I exclusively lay down now, and can barely stand that (I'd rather be under her desk, or in a closet!). My question, are you able to still switch back and forth when you are talking about the really hard things?
You are doing such great work with your T. He sounds awesome, so understanding and accepting, and most of all, smart! As you continue your work, I do think your differing memories will work together to form some sort of cohesive front. My T will remind me sometimes not to push the memories, they will be heard when they are ready.
Thanks for posting. It resonated with me. And I loved Daisy's reply as well.
Posted by Pfinstegg on November 12, 2005, at 10:55:39
In reply to Re: Knowing and not knowing... » Pfinstegg, posted by daisym on November 12, 2005, at 1:10:01
You expressed some of the implications of what I was talking about so well. The first is the incredibly painful awareness that our parents' love was imperfect, and did not protect us, I think everyone has such a huge need to think well of their parents; facing the feelings of being unloved and abused also means really losing our parents, as we had wished them to be. We are left all alone with unbeareable memories of what actually happened- memories which, until now, we had confined to just one or two ego states, so that the others could retain the illusion that we were loved and safe. That's what I did, too. I can see now that this year of tremendous rage and hatred towards my therapist was really a first step in becoming aware of the depth of rage I had, unconsciously, towards my parents for allowing/doing what they did to me. My analyst is now becoming the good, new, loving parent to my different parts, while the rage is becoming directed, more, at my parents. They are both dead; it is so hard. I feel sort of as if I were killing them all over again, even killing the good parts of them.
I guess every person stores their memories in a slightly different way, according to what they can bear. You seem to be doing so well in remembering and telling your therapist, even though you have another worried ego state who needs a lot of reassurance about whether it is OK to tell, whether it was actually "that bad", etc. I think that's so natural and understandable- at least, I do exactly the same thing- minimize it, try to justify it somehow, and, of course, wonder whether it actually happened.
My analyst never wants to push or hurry me; it's OK with him when I back off, and appear to undo something we have just worked on the day before. How much patience and hope for the future that must take on his part! He still says, "we are just at the beginning- we have time"- even now!
Actually, I know we have moved beyond the beginning. My depression, which became very severe when my parents died, has lifted a huge amount. I have been able to reduce the medications way down (though not eliminating them- I may always need them to a degree), and I've also been able to reduce the frequency of going to Dr. Hutto in Atlanta for TMS. I only go when the depression has been severe for several weeks, and it is usually mild or absent now.
If I were going to point to one thing that has helped me, I think it is working through the negative transferences with his wonderful help. For months, I was so ashamed and terrified of the rage and hate I felt towards this lovely man that I was on the verge of quitting every day!
It's such a help to know one isn't alone with these terrible struggles. Thank you for responding and sharing your experience, Daisy.
Posted by Pfinstegg on November 12, 2005, at 11:35:54
In reply to Re: Knowing and not knowing... » Pfinstegg, posted by Annierose on November 12, 2005, at 7:02:39
Thanks for responding so fully, Annie- and for the support, which means so much to me. Csa is definitely not the whole story for anyone; emotional neglect is always there, before and after, and is probably what allows such a thing to happen. I read, somewhere, recently, that emotional abuse, itself, is the thing that is so painful and damaging, whether or not it is accompanied by physical or sexual abuse also.
Because I am in analysis, we use the couch a lot- as you do. But in the past year, I had exactly the opposite experience from you. I began to feel sort of derealized and alone when lying down- not sure of whether he was actually "there", emotionally. So he asked me to find the place in his office that felt safest to my younger parts. Well, the safest place turned out to be on the floor at the end of his couch! It felt kind of embarrassing and silly at first, but he was glad I had found a safer place, and we have done a lot of work from that position that has felt really valuable to me. It's important for the younger parts to be able to look at his face and in his eyes, although lots of times they are fearful of doing so. Then. the most terrified parts can actually hunker down and HIDE behind the end of the couch for a little while, if they need to- just like you were sayiing you wanted to do. I find I've been able to express a lot more rage and fear from that position, and free associate better. For right now, I was completely overwhelmed, lying down. We both know that I need to be stronger before it's the best place for me again.
You sound like you've got a wonderful therapist, too, Annie. They really are the emotional centers of our worlds, for the time being anyway (probably forever, even when we get to termination!). My analyst really welcomes that; he said, in the beginning, "I hope you have as intense an experience as possible". I kind of agree with you- your heart feels attached and trustful, which is wonderful, but there are parts tucked somewhere in your mind, which contain horrible experiences of being all alone, and unimportant to anyone- and those parts find it much harder to feel attached and safe. But it sounds as though all those parts are getting a chance to be fully heard.
We are so lucky to have found these therapists. I think they are few and far-between. This time, I didn't mention Daisy's therapist, but I will here, (((Daisy))), as I didn't mean to overlook him, and think he is absolutely remarkable.
I hope the extremely hard work you are doing is helping, and giving you feelings of hope for your future. Thank you, too, for replying so thoughtfully; it was so supportive of you. I was afraid it was going to be one of those post which just hang out there all by themselves forever!
Posted by muffled on November 12, 2005, at 13:09:59
In reply to Knowing and not knowing..., posted by Pfinstegg on November 11, 2005, at 20:22:50
> I haven't been posting lately here, because therapy has been so hard for the past year that I hardly knew what to say about it. But now things are, for the moment, anyway, so much better. I feel I can really say anything to him, - and I do!>
*Thats so nice to hear.
But, I haven't gotten to the real subject of my post, which is that a part of me is certain that my father molested me when I was six years old, and another part of me is equally certain that it never happened. (The six-year old knows it happened, but the adult thinks it never did). It comes up vividly in dreams, in drawings with the art therapist, and in many sudden slips of the tongue in my analyst's office. But the whole thing is kind of like Schrodinger's Cat in quantum mechanics- both dead and alive at the same time. Learning to accept that all of me may never know makes me very uneasy, but my analyst says that memory is so complex, and still not very well understood, and that I need to keep becoming more comfortable with the concept that my different ego states in fact may have differing memories and experiences. A very long way of asking: is anyone else having an experience like this?
*Sorry to hear of your sad memories. I'm not so separated, but I was recently surprized to find that there was a part of me that would seem to know stuff that I don't. Its making me feel a little weird all right. But I just sort of tell myself that that stuff(I don't think its anything too bad?-I had after all the perfect childhood) is 'her' stuff(she feels shes SO bad), and I don't really want to know.I don't feel bad about myself anymore. I was sitting in the tub and started to get a flash of something but I blocked it real fast cuz I don't want to know. I just want that 'other' me to intergrate w/me somehow so i can stop the chewing in my guts and just stop being so screwed up somehow.
Nice to meet you.
Muffled.
>
Posted by annierose on November 12, 2005, at 14:21:11
In reply to Re: Knowing and not knowing... » Annierose, posted by Pfinstegg on November 12, 2005, at 11:35:54
(I'm at work so I may have to cut this reply short)
I guess what we are all talking about is how painful and hard this work is. It takes us to places that are difficult, but putting words to the experiences, helps our psyche digest them in such a way that the trauma interferes less and less in our daily life. At least, that is the hope. And, yes, I am hopeful.
The confusing part to me (or one of the confusing parts) is the relationship itself between client and therapist. I find it hard to accept how important she is to me. Meanwhile, I function in the real world, running my business and family, while I have this "secret" life in my therapist's office. In her office, I feel so imcompetent, so stupid. I struggle with loving her and hating the places she is taking me to. I still censor my thoughts, although I'm getting much better and letting her hear my unedited accounts.
Yes, it is so difficult to physically keep myself on the couch. I so much wanted to move somewhere else in the office, and told her so. She tried to get me to put words to the feeling of needing to hide, reminding me that it was okay, that I was okay with her. It's so confusing right now, that I am finding it hard to post any threads too (but I try to help others). As I left her office yesterday, I felt thankful that I was seeing a psychodynamic/analytical orientated therapist. I know this is what I need to free myself from my inner angst.
Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I always enjoy reading your perspective and happy you check in with babble from time to time. You are very insightful from your place on the floor at the edge of the couch (I almost curled up into a ball yesterday, then quickly realized that she wouldn't understand a word I was saying).
Posted by muffled on November 12, 2005, at 14:40:30
In reply to Re: Knowing and not knowing... » Pfinstegg, posted by annierose on November 12, 2005, at 14:21:11
> (I'm at work so I may have to cut this reply short)
>
> The confusing part to me (or one of the confusing parts) is the relationship itself between client and therapist. I find it hard to accept how important she is to me. Meanwhile, I function in the real world, running my business and family, while I have this "secret" life in my therapist's office. In her office, I feel so imcompetent, so stupid. I struggle with loving her and hating the places she is taking me to. I still censor my thoughts, although I'm getting much better and letting her hear my unedited accounts.*Do you think you have to let them be important or can you keep that special safe distance?
>
> Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I always enjoy reading your perspective and happy you check in with babble from time to time. You are very insightful from your place on the floor at the edge of the couch (I almost curled up into a ball yesterday, then quickly realized that she wouldn't understand a word I was saying).*Its funny you should say about hiding. Thats my homework this week. When do I need to hide?
As for me, I'm SO lucky!!!My T. has excellent hearing!!!! There's been times when I'm all bent over in my chair, all but in a ball, and she still seems to be able to hear what little I mumble.
It really is weird how different we are with our T's. Just protecting ourselves I reckon.
Take care Annie.
Muffled.
Posted by annierose on November 12, 2005, at 15:11:09
In reply to Re: Knowing and not knowing... » annierose, posted by muffled on November 12, 2005, at 14:40:30
Hi Muffed-
My T thinks that it's wonderful that she is so important to me; it's important for the work that we do that I feel attached to her (probably to be able to withstand the all the bumps and road-blocks along the way). I see her 3x per week, so the intensity level is high some of the time.
Thank you for your reply. I feel so badly for your struggles too. I wish I knew how to help.
Posted by Pfinstegg on November 12, 2005, at 16:08:45
In reply to Re: Knowing and not knowing... » Pfinstegg, posted by muffled on November 12, 2005, at 13:09:59
Nice to meet you, too! Could you be meeting up with another part of you when you have those flashacks? When I started therapy two and a half years ago, I had no idea that there was more than one part to me, and I really resisted learning about it, to the point that my analyst said, "You've almost got ME convinced that you don't have them. but not quite". Once I knew they were there, and started thinking that I had differing ego states- not DID, but differing parts, so that my feeling-state would change in an instant- from happy and calm to distressed and very sad, without knowing why- I began feeling better, slowly but surely. My analyst and I comfort the other states together now, as well as inquire all the time for things we don't know yet. It's such a novel way of working, but it really does seem to make more and more sense as we go along. I'm very distressed, too, about finding out how separate parts of me are, but I feel a lot better than when I didn't know anything about it. Thanks for your kind thoughts- and I hope all goes well with you!
Posted by Pfinstegg on November 12, 2005, at 16:15:35
In reply to Re: Knowing and not knowing... » Pfinstegg, posted by annierose on November 12, 2005, at 14:21:11
I guess each therapist has different ideas of what boundaries will work best for them, but I've spent quite a bit of time curled up on the couch- he still hears me! Perhaps yours would prefer that you talk about how much you want to, rather than actually doing it. I'm glad mine welcomes these non-verbal ways of expressing things, but we are always starting with those, and ending up with feelings and words- words especially, and interactions between us
Posted by daisym on November 12, 2005, at 17:38:30
In reply to Re: Knowing and not knowing... » daisym, posted by Pfinstegg on November 12, 2005, at 10:55:39
Two questions:
Do you think this work would be different if you were working with a woman? (Or, Annie -- with a man?)My transference has been all over the map, mostly maternal/paternal but the past 6 months much more partner oriented. Not necessarily sexual, but physically wanted to be comforted and definately wanting him in my life outside of the office.
And yet -- I totally get what Annie said by the "secret life" concept. If anyone saw me in therapy, they would be just shocked at the transformation from competent and capable to sobbing and suicidal. It isn't that I've been able to hide the depression completely, my friends and family are well aware I'm struggling. But no one knows how much I see my therapist, how important therapy is and why it is such a life line. I think my secretary thinks I'm having an affair because when my therapist calls, (most Fridays), I shut my door and talk for long periods of time.
The other question is whether this work is easier or harder with parents who are living or dead. One of the most painful things is the change in the relationship I have with my mom. I don't trust myself to not blurt out right now, "where were you!?" I don't want to hurt her and I can't think of anything good that would come of telling her right now. It is too old and what is done is done. My dad lives far from me so I can keep my distance pretty well. But we had rebuilt a relationship over the past 20 years and I miss him. And I hate him at the exact same time.
My therapist gets to have all these emotions thrown at him right now -- "I miss you" "I hate this" "I don't know what good it does to tell you all this." I can totally see the transference, but I still can't help it. It feels like it is about him. I even said Thursday, "sometimes I wish I'd never met you" -- and I cried so hard I couldn't breathe. He just waits and says, "tell me why you are crying" and we talk about how alone I feel and how much I want to be with him. He acknowledges how painful my feelings are for him sometimes - he actually asked me if I wished I was working with a woman. Which is why I guess I'm asking you guys if you think it would make a difference...
Lucky for me he knows me well enough to call a few hour later just to say, "I'm OK with what you said and how you feel about me. I'm not put off and you can't push me away with all of this. And I didn't ask about working with a woman because I think you need to change. I think you are doing exactly what you need to right now." It only took 5 minutes but I bet it saved me from hours of agonizing over that session.
I guess this is me, having a very intense experience!
Posted by daisym on November 12, 2005, at 17:53:02
In reply to Re: Knowing and not knowing..., posted by Pfinstegg on November 12, 2005, at 16:08:45
***My analyst and I comfort the other states together now, as well as inquire all the time for things we don't know yet.***
Pfinstegg, would you mind sharing more about how you do this? I can move from one state to another and I can interpret for a state. I've had dreams about states interacting. But mostly the younger parts want to talk directly to my therapist, or write down their experiences, especially if I cave and give myself over to it fully. I've been afraid of doing that lately because I end up demanding these irrational things, like, "where were you?!" and I'm mortified.
I can't begin to comfort these parts. I'm too busy defending them right now.
Posted by Annierose on November 12, 2005, at 19:58:15
In reply to Re: Knowing and not knowing..., posted by daisym on November 12, 2005, at 17:38:30
I do think in some ways it would be harder for me if I was working with a man. I love my T enough already, so why add in a sexual component, because I do think I would be flirtatious with a male T. I guess what I'm trying to say, it's hard enough handling my feelings of love for my T, let alone wishing I could seduce him.
Both of my parents are living as well. I do see them on occasion, but they have no genuine feelings for me. When friends and babblers talk about their parents and the qualities they miss in them, I am hard pressed to come up with one thing I would miss about either one of my parents.
Also, the transference, it just messes up my mind. It does feel it is about them. Daisy, you are much further along your journey than I am. I'm just beginning to share all these intense feelings with my T, the "I miss you", "I hate this", "I just you could comfort me", "You don't really care" ... I do HATE it!! I feel like such a fool, and I worry what she thinks (yes, I do share that with her). I still feel it.
Yes, Pfinstegg's therapist would be happy that I am having a very intense experience too. Does that mean we are working really hard? Does that mean we are really messed up? Are we over-thinking everything? YIKERS ... I just don't like the place I am in right now. Back to middle school, feel awkward and all alone (coincidentally, my daughter just started middle school and I do believe it's what put me back there).
My T is taking the week of Thanksgiving off and I'm already worrying about that. My husband is being extra supportive these past few weeks. He knows I've been out of sorts.
Daisy your T is so responsive to you, it's amazing. It was nice that he called and reassured you. My T would never call me unless I asked her to. I often wish she would reach out to me when she knows I am going through a particularly rough patch.
We will get through this. It just takes lots of time. And we are lucky we have wonderful therapists in our lives (even if I get mad at mine from time to time).
Posted by Annierose on November 12, 2005, at 22:10:19
In reply to Re: Knowing and not knowing... » annierose, posted by Pfinstegg on November 12, 2005, at 16:15:35
I don't think my T would mind if I did curl myself into a ball, or switched to the other chair. I just felt so uncomfortable to move anywhere, I kindof froze straight and hid my face with my sweater. Oh, the views she gets from her side of the room.
I want to matter.
Posted by Pfinstegg on November 13, 2005, at 9:23:59
In reply to Re: Knowing and not knowing... » Pfinstegg, posted by daisym on November 12, 2005, at 17:53:02
Well, he has been gradually teaching me to comfort them,and to let them know that the adult me understands their pain, fear and longing. He said once, "I think that it's not possible for me to do it alone; there are so many times when you aren't here with me, and your parts are despairing or terrified- at those times, they will be very grateful if you let them know you understand and care." I really wanted HIM to do it all, but, in fact, it does work at least to an extent. It's as if the analysis is going on in my head all the time. Mine also doesn't call, or encourage calls, so I have to rely on my own resources when I'm not with him. I think the dedication of your therapist to calling and keeping in touch on Fridays and weekends is so remarkable. It must be quite rare, too.
As to having a male or female, I'm not sure if it matters too much. Mine is very tall and handsome, and I initially did have sexual feelings for him. But, as the work progressed, my own underlying parts' needs and desires, which are so much more childlike and asexual, came to predominate, and the adult sexual longings became far less important, and only appear occasionally. I wouldn't get too far with any flirting, because he wouldn't do it back, but would ask me to free associate to it all!
I actually prefer working with a man- at least this particular man- although I have both maternal and paternal transferences to him. I can easily imagine working successfully with a woman if she understood ego state disorders as well as mine does.
Posted by Pfinstegg on November 13, 2005, at 9:49:24
In reply to Re: Knowing and not knowing... » Pfinstegg, posted by Annierose on November 12, 2005, at 22:10:19
You obviously do matter a lot to her. But there must be parts of you who don't know that yet. That seems to be a major part of therapy for us: finding and expressing those parts who feel so terrified, unloved and alone, and bringing them into the sessions so that they can interact with our therapists, and learn that they, too, are cared about and understood. For those parts, they will feel that that IS love. I think a lot of the very regressive things I do, like curling up in a ball, or hiding behind the couch, is a bodily way of bringing the feelings of those most lonely terrified parts into the sessions. Then they can begin to, first, feel their feelings, and then express them in words- very simple, brief words if it is a young part.
It's just in the past year that I have felt free enough to do this. I think the art therapy helped a lot in bringing out and validating the younger parts. We (the art therapist and I) began spending a lot of time actually doing play therapy with dolls, clay, etc.- that also helped a lot to bring out the youngest and most primitive feelings. I have stopped doing it, for now, because the cost, and time, just became too much.
You both have parents who are still alive. Mine are dead, but, if they were still alive, I would have loved to discuss all of the abuse with them-sexual, physical and emotional. Not in the sense of confronting them angrily, but in the sense of inquiry- needing and wanting to know just what happened. I know they would both have been full of denial, and very defensive, but anything i could have learned- for example, from their body language- would have been helpful to me, in trying to move past the "knowing and not knowing". For you both, you may have been able to answer most of those questions already in your own minds.
Posted by Dinah on November 13, 2005, at 10:01:44
In reply to Re: Knowing and not knowing... » Pfinstegg, posted by Annierose on November 12, 2005, at 22:10:19
You want to matter to your therapist?
Oh, I could tell you so many ways you matter. But I'm not quite sure of the context you're referring to.
I'm pretty sure that your therapist knows you well enough that you matter very much to her, as you do to us. It may not be the therapeutic ideal of distance, but I think that's what makes some of our therapists so healing to us. That they convey that we do matter to them.
I wonder if there's a formal therapy system out there that understands that?
Posted by Pfinstegg on November 13, 2005, at 10:33:56
In reply to Re: Knowing and not knowing... » Annierose, posted by Pfinstegg on November 13, 2005, at 9:49:24
Yes. There's so much intensity packed into just this one thread that my T. would be thrilled, and, I believe, would be very confident that everyone is really going to get better! He's a Supervising and Training Psychoanalyst in our city, with a lot of younger psychoanalysts in training with him, so I trust a lot that what he emphasizes is important. And he's had 32 years of experience as an analyst to find out what works and what doesn't. When I found him, I told him how glad I was- and that I so wished that I had found him earlier. He said, "in a way I wish you had, too, but I might not have known enough earlier to treat you (your ego state disorder) effectively". So, the right person at the right time!
Posted by Annierose on November 13, 2005, at 15:17:45
In reply to Re: Knowing and not knowing... » Annierose, posted by Pfinstegg on November 13, 2005, at 9:49:24
Thank you Pfinstegg for beginning this tread. Yes, I do believe it's an intense thread, but it has helped me put words to feelings that I hadn't found the words for yet.
I remembered reading last year (I believe) when you began art therapy ... so interesting. It certainly does sound like your younger parts had a chance to express themselves through play and art.
I cried when I read your reply: "You obviously do matter a lot to her." This is my struggle. And I will definitely bring this tread up tomorrow. Thank you for saying that. I'm feeling better. I hope this discussion has helped you as well.
As for my parents, it's so mixed up right now. I don't believe they are capable of having any type of conversation that would involve real emotions or ideas. They live on the surface, "as if" we are a close family. Nothing is there but an occasional phone about what they are doing for dinner, the movie they saw last night and various medical complaints. They don't even interact with their grandchildren. Very sad for all. I think my T would like some type of dialogue to happen before they die ... she has recently began asking if I can imagine trying to have a conversation with them. I can't.
Posted by Annierose on November 13, 2005, at 15:25:17
In reply to Re: Knowing and not knowing... » Annierose, posted by Dinah on November 13, 2005, at 10:01:44
Yes, I do want to matter to my therapist. I know she cares about me, but do I matter, as a person? When she goes about her daily life outside the office, does she ever come across something, a book, a movie and think, "Annie would like this." And as I wrote that sentence I remembered she saw the movie "June Bug" and told me she thought I would like the movie, that I probably could identify with one of the characters. So of course I went to see the movie. But even my dsyfunctional family wasn't that cold. Since I own a business, is she ever curious about going there (when she knows I'm away)?
By the way, I hope you had another solid session with your T today. At least you didn't have to wait as long to see him, but a week is still a long time inbetween in therapy-time. I understand that completely.
Thank you for your support. It really helped me today. I really needed it.
Posted by antigua on November 13, 2005, at 17:10:15
In reply to Knowing and not knowing..., posted by Pfinstegg on November 11, 2005, at 20:22:50
I'm so late to this post, but yes, I can feel the same way. I know it happened to the six year old, but secretly I know it didn't. Until I go through it as that young girl, I will never believe it. Just me, although rationally there is no doubt it is true. I'm just not fully able to face it yet, but I will with time, or find a safe way to live w/o consciously knowing.
I've found that there are so many layers that cover up the abuse (the defense and the belief systems, and the denials) that I'm just slowly peeling away the layers until I am at a point that I can truly feel it and accept it. There are many things I know that happened, but the heart of it is still out there.
Once I hid behind the chair and made her turn the lights off, but I couldn't really talk like I wanted to--maybe I will try again when I'm stronger.
After feeling so good about understanding about being rejected by my father, and what that did to my self-esteem, etc., I now feel like I'm mourning and letting go. Letting go of that vision I have of that one kind, caring father so I can get to see the fuller picture.
I did catch myself the other day, though, watching my older inner girl (the angry, nine year old) actually reaching out to the really hurt little one, picking her up off the floor, cutting her hair, bathing the yuck off of her and giving her nice, new clean pajamas, painting the wall in her room to yellow from the dreary off white and reading her a wonderful bedtime story. Very much like I would have done for my younger brother. I gave him the nurturing I needed for my own, but I'm glad I did--cause now I can see that I needed it too.
I don't rage or cry. I wish I could. I will someday.
You are doing so great Pfinstegg and I know how hard it is.
best to you, and all the other babblers who are suffering,
antigua
Posted by daisym on November 13, 2005, at 17:24:11
In reply to Re: Knowing and not knowing... » Pfinstegg, posted by Annierose on November 13, 2005, at 15:17:45
Do you think therapists think we must have those conversations to ever fully heal? I wonder sometimes. I bring it up occasionally -- wondering what it would be like to talk about it. My sister did and got shot down completely and fully. My mom didn't believe her (she asked me, a year ago when she told me, why would she say such a thing?) and my dad denied it fully. My sister says she was "just" touched a lot -- of course she was only 5 when he moved away. I still feel bad that I couldn't jump in and back her up -- but no one told me all this took place until last year.
I ask "why did this happen?" a lot -- and my therapist commented that perhaps I need to let go of wanting to know why because it was an intellectual exercise that still keeps me from fully feeling it all. And there is no real answer anyway, is there?
Posted by daisym on November 13, 2005, at 17:28:32
In reply to Re: Knowing and not knowing... Trigger » Pfinstegg, posted by antigua on November 13, 2005, at 17:10:15
I like the imagine of yellow walls...
You sound like you are on the right track and really doing well. Grieving is hard though, it makes you feel wrung out all the time. Letting go is harder still, I think.
I wish my nine year old could do something besides rail and cry. She comforts no one, not even herself. It makes it hard to talk about this period of time. I can't even write it down right now.
Maybe we need an art party for everyone?
Posted by daisym on November 13, 2005, at 17:41:09
In reply to Re: Knowing and not knowing... » daisym, posted by Pfinstegg on November 13, 2005, at 9:23:59
I guess in order to comfort them I need to develop some compassion, because right now I just get upset that all of this is so disruptive to both work and to my life. It feels like an internal war going on a lot. The adult just doesn't want to need therapy this much. And occasionally I think I'd like my therapist to see my more competent side, I'm not always so pathetic! He says he knows that but I'm not so sure.
I think I know what you mean about the analysis going on in your head even without your therapist. I can do this now and phone contact is much less than it use to be. I know I can call if I want or need to, but I usually can wait until I see him. The past few weeks have intensified the need to touch base again and he says he is just fine with that. It is frustrating because I thought I was past that stage. And he is clear sometimes that he wants to hear from me to alliviate his own anxiety about my safety -- with medication changes and other stressors I've been mood swinging wildly again.
I think I'm going to ask him tomorrow if anyone sits any place other than the couch or chair. I don't usually want to sit anywhere else, I want to get up and pace around. I still can't imagine lying down -- I'm just not that brave.
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