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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on November 21, 2005, at 23:01:04
I've spent the last two therapy sessions going to therapy, feeling that the connection we used to have is just not there any more, and staring at him and grieving. (Finally I go to therapy with my eyes open.)
So this time he said that I seemed unsure about what direction to take therapy, perhaps because I wasn't sure I was moving.
And I just burst out crying. Because deciding what direction to take therapy is not something I think about in relationship to him. It's always an evolving entity, not a detached decision.
So after much silence, I told him the truth. That I was grieving not so much because I might lose him if I moved, but because I had already lost him and could feel that every week. When pressed, I could only say that it didn't feel like he really recognized me and greeted me as if he knew me. There is always that awkwardness as between new acquaintances. I told him that after ten years, I would have hoped that our relationship had built to the point where it could weather this without my becoming a stranger to him.
He more or less admitted that I was right. That he knew he wasn't connecting as usual. And he had a lot of reasons as to why. He said it was his hope that we could just forget the differences and go forward, but that he knew that was a lot to ask for. I answered that yes, it was too much to ask. That I needed to grieve, and I hoped he could help me.
He seemed so defeated and vulnerable. I called to apologize today and he apologized too. He said he hadn't realized how really tired he had been yesterday, and how that had affected his ability to be there in a therapeutic way, until today when he felt better.
I don't know what's best to do. To continue to grieve and not try to reconnect? Or to stop being so d*mnably passive and start acting like I normally do. Yank him (verbally) into the session if he's not there fully.
He says he hopes to move back to the city by next summer. I'm not really clear if it will be a permanent or temporary move. He says that he doesn't feel like he's moved, exactly, just that he's living somewhere else right now.
But relationships can't be put on dry ice until they're more convenient. At least this one can't. We clearly don't have the natural chemistry that allows old friends to meet after years and feel like it was just yesterday. Without nurturing this relationship won't live to see the summer.
So do I throw my all into nurturing it, and hope that he does too? Or do I continue down the path that I've already started and grieve its death? Surely it would be easier to grieve now than to start again later. Or maybe the grieving would go on anyway, even if I try my hardest.
I'm so afraid of being hurt by him, and unlike other times perhaps, this time I've got good reason to fear.
He wants me to stay in this moment and fight. I told him I would.
But...
I want more than anything to fight to relationship. To stay connected at all costs. To fight even if the chances are slim.
But I want to grieve and move on. I delight in every error in judgement he makes that damages the relationship further. I laugh in glee.
I can't seem to reconcile what my gut wants, and what my brain wants.
Posted by Tabitha on November 22, 2005, at 0:21:20
In reply to Dang that fighting to relationship!, posted by Dinah on November 21, 2005, at 23:01:04
Gosh, how awful it must have been to travel so far, and get a not-fully-present therapist at the end of the journey. I think I'd be pretty P.O'd! But somehow I think you 2 will work it out.
Maybe you can just allow that grief without feeling like it's a decision about the relationship? Maybe you just need some grief to happen somewhere. You've lost so much recently. Personally I just think it's always good to grieve.
Posted by Dinah on November 22, 2005, at 0:25:40
In reply to Re: Dang that fighting to relationship!, posted by Tabitha on November 22, 2005, at 0:21:20
Well, at least I'm not driving to get this. :) He's in town once a week, and I see him then.
Maybe I *should* drive to see him. Maybe he'd be more himself when he's not driven three hours to be here.
I think you're right about the grieving. I'm spending a lot of time all the time doing that, but I only really *feel* things in therapy. So maybe I just need that right now.
Posted by orchid on November 22, 2005, at 6:46:17
In reply to Dang that fighting to relationship!, posted by Dinah on November 21, 2005, at 23:01:04
One thing I realized is, for a relationship to work, both parties need to try. You cannot be the sole person to try to make it work.
I would say if your T doesn't do his part to maintain the connectivity, then it perhaps won't make much of a difference even if you try your best. He has to do his part also.
Maybe you should ask him if he is willing to really do it.
(((Dinah)))
Posted by fallsfall on November 22, 2005, at 14:21:06
In reply to Dang that fighting to relationship!, posted by Dinah on November 21, 2005, at 23:01:04
>
> He seemed so defeated and vulnerable. I called to apologize today and he apologized too. He said he hadn't realized how really tired he had been yesterday, and how that had affected his ability to be there in a therapeutic way, until today when he felt better.*** He hasn't been there in a therapeutic way for a while now.
>
> I don't know what's best to do. To continue to grieve and not try to reconnect? Or to stop being so d*mnably passive and start acting like I normally do. Yank him (verbally) into the session if he's not there fully.*** That was never your job in the first place. it is your job to make sure that YOU are there. It is his job to make sure that HE is.
>
> He says he hopes to move back to the city by next summer. I'm not really clear if it will be a permanent or temporary move. He says that he doesn't feel like he's moved, exactly, just that he's living somewhere else right now.
>
> But relationships can't be put on dry ice until they're more convenient. At least this one can't. We clearly don't have the natural chemistry that allows old friends to meet after years and feel like it was just yesterday. Without nurturing this relationship won't live to see the summer.
>
> So do I throw my all into nurturing it, and hope that he does too? Or do I continue down the path that I've already started and grieve its death? Surely it would be easier to grieve now than to start again later. Or maybe the grieving would go on anyway, even if I try my hardest.
>
*** You have started the grieving process already. You have decided at some level that he will never again be the therapist for you that he was. That the relationship will never be the same. And it won't. Relationships change as people change. I don't think that you really (OK, I know that you DO really, but in the long term, I don't think that you really) want to go backwards to where you were. You need to move forwards. And you need to decide who will be with you as you move forwards.> I'm so afraid of being hurt by him, and unlike other times perhaps, this time I've got good reason to fear.
>
*** You have already been hurt by him.> I want more than anything to fight to relationship. To stay connected at all costs. To fight even if the chances are slim.
*** Because this saves the status quo.
>
> But I want to grieve and move on. I delight in every error in judgement he makes that damages the relationship further. I laugh in glee.
>
> I can't seem to reconcile what my gut wants, and what my brain wants.
>
*** Dinah,I think that you are ready for things to change. But you are afraid to take the steps. If I thought that your therapist was an outstanding therapist, then I might encourage you to see what would be around the corner with him. But you have said that he is not an amazing therapist, you have even said that he isn't really a just good therapist. He gave you something unique that you needed at the time (and at some level you still need, but I think to a different degree than you did before). For that you can be always grateful and always hold a special place in your heart for him. But I think that the chances of him being able to give you what you need to move forward are much slimmer. Not just because of geography, but because I think that you need something that he is not trained to give you.
It is hard to move towards change (boy, do I know that!). It is scary. It is so tempting to retreat to the things we know (like when I took a nap this morning). But you DO know that you are ready for more than what you had. And you need to go after it.
One of the hardest things for me is to know when to STOP fighting for something. I fight to the very bitterest end. Your situation right now feels familiar to me. Maybe because you are fighting past the point where you should be fighting?
The fact that you feel the push to grieve this relationship despite all the things that make you want to hold on to it, speaks volumes to me.
There is another chapter in your life... I'm excited to hear it.
Posted by Tamar on November 22, 2005, at 18:08:24
In reply to Dang that fighting to relationship!, posted by Dinah on November 21, 2005, at 23:01:04
I agree with everything Falls said.
And yet I also wonder if grieving is such a natural state for you (after everything that has happened in the last year or so) that perhaps you’re inclined to grieve before it’s necessary.
By all means, grieve for the change in your relationship. And for his errors of judgement. And even for the uncertainty. That’s very natural, of course.
I was interested in the connection between one aspect of a post you made on social (where you talked about growing up with cockroaches) and the dream you posted here a few days ago. It was the part where you talked about the cockroaches on the table, which was clearly so close to the cockroach pie in your dream. And I thought: maybe the dream wasn’t so symbolic after all. Maybe it’s largely about experience: perhaps your fears (for your son, for your family, for your therapy) stem so much from personal experience that it seems as if history is repeating itself. The friends who died or moved away; the family members and pets who aren’t there anymore… perhaps a sense that you’re the one who is left when others leave or change. The roaches are real: they’re something you had to live with once, and a reality for your son in your worst nightmares.
Sorry, I’m rambling a bit. I think I’m trying to say that maybe you’ve always been the strong one who can hold things together and other people depend on that; even your therapist depends on it. And where does that leave you when you fear your own weaknesses? You *know* you can’t be responsible for everything. But maybe people expect you to take on more responsibility that you feel ready for.
And your therapist is somewhat lost: the one person who should (in theory) be your rock is all fluid and uncertainty. It sucks so much. And yet… I still wonder if there are therapeutic opportunities there… Sometimes it seems to me that you’re so strong and so able to tolerate weakness in other people, even though it hurts you. Your therapist is, I suppose, the one person who should be stronger than you. And yet, it seems, he isn’t. What if you *don’t* take responsibility for him? What if you insist that *he* has to take responsibility for *you*? I think he wants to… but he isn’t managing it yet. Will he pull it together? Or will he be another person who abandons you? No wonder you’re grieving already. I want him to pull it together. I want him to prove that he’s the person who can be for you what you need: a solid place of refuge. I’m sure he’s capable of it. Tell him we babblers expect a lot from him because we think highly of him! (And if he’s not in therapy he probably needs to do some pronto.)
And you say:
> I can't seem to reconcile what my gut wants, and what my brain wants.
That was my realisation when I started therapy. My gut and my brain were working to different agendas… I always wanted my gut to catch up with my brain, but I’m finding that in fact it’s easier if I let my brain inform my gut without trying to change my gut feelings. Usually neither of them is 100% right… trying to find a compromise between them seems to work a bit better for me.But what do I know? I don’t really know what I’m saying at the moment… If I’m talking complete nonsense, please ignore me or yell at me, but don’t take it to heart.
Tamar
Posted by Dinah on November 22, 2005, at 18:09:31
In reply to Re: Dang that fighting to relationship!, posted by fallsfall on November 22, 2005, at 14:21:06
Wow. Did I really say that he wasn't a good therapist? That was awfully harsh of me. I must have been at my very least emotional when I said that.
I don't know that it's entirely true either. It's true that he's not big on interpretations. Even T3 likes to tie things in to my central issues more than he does, at times stretching things a bit to make them fit. He isn't really one to do that.
But... Well, maybe he isn't altogether wrong in treating me that way. He knows me well enough to know that definitive statements are likely to bring out the contrariness in me. He makes suggestions, or he asks suggestive questions, and makes me come up with my own theories.
And to this day I find it difficult to access my emotional side if I'm not in contact with him. Lots of times, at once a week therapy, I don't know what the h*ll I'm feeling, or to some extent, what the h*ll I'm thinking, until therapy.
I think it took a pretty remarkable therapist to coax that out of me, because at the time I began to see him it was so far hidden that I seriously thought I might have Aspergers. And there were those who agreed with me.
The skills it takes to do that may not be as clear cut or easy to see as the skills to challenge or make interpretations, but I don't think they're any less valuable.
It's happening now, and it's continuing to happen. Without my therapist in my life, I'm going to revert back to my as-if self. I don't know if other posters can see it in me, but I can feel it when responding to posts, or trying to respond to posts.
Is that a bad thing? I don't know. It depends when you ask me. At times I'd say it was a very productive way of life. At times I'd say it wasn't a terribly painful way of life, and thus superior to being in touch with my feelings.
But on some level, I know that it's a very limited way of life.
My therapist pulled me from that way of life, kicking and screaming at times. And while I won't pretend that he's the only therapist who could ever do that, I do think he's one of a small minority who could do that. I like T3 well enough, and I enjoy her insights, but she doesn't engage me emotionally. In fact, being with her accentuates my rational side.
Maybe that's not a bad thing. My therapist thinks it is a bad thing.
Posted by Dinah on November 22, 2005, at 19:15:44
In reply to Re: Dang that fighting to relationship! » Dinah, posted by Tamar on November 22, 2005, at 18:08:24
Tamar, you're really very good at this. I was wondering if anyone else would pick up on the cockroach theme. As I wrote the post, I was overwhelmed by the similarity of the memories of the familiar yet revolting sight of cockroaches walking across the table and sometimes up the underside of the plate, and my dreams of having them in my mouth with their little antennae waving out of it.
But I couldn't really see a relationship.
It makes sense though, if for no other reason that one of my big fears right now is of dying and turning my son over to my mother. I had to live with (or eat) the cockroaches, but I want to protect my son from that.
And what's also funny is that T3 and I talked today about my dearly held illusions. How I like to look to those in authority for protection, when the protection always proves to be illusory. Yet I hate to admit that I'm capable of looking after myself. I think she stretched the point a bit, which is sort of a shame since it distracted me from the fact that there is a certain amount of truth to the idea.
I *like* the feeling of safety, even if at some level I know it's just an illusion.
I'm not sure if that's what's going on with my therapist or not. My typical relationship with "protectors" is that I know all too well their weaknesses, and I protect them and take care of them as much as they take care of me. (My father being the prototypical "protector" in my life) While I might get a bit annoyed at feeling that my relationship with my therapist, previously mostly an exception to this rule, is falling into the same path, I don't think it would cause me as much pain as I'm feeling now.
It's the lack of connection in session that's making me feel so adrift. I keep going back to the thought that it feels like he's not recognizing me as the me he's known for years. That he's just sitting down as if for the first time.
I think I could accept the wounded healer, or flawed mommy, a lot better than I can take the disconnection.
Yet the connection has always had at least as much to do with me as with him. I've always been one to call him on not being there, or on reacting defensively. It might not be my job, but I've always done what I needed to do to get what I need from him. So what's different right now may be as much me as him.
It may just be as simple as the fact that I do want the freedom to leave if we decide to leave the city. If he hadn't moved three hours away, if he hadn't left for a month on three days notice, if he had continued to be here for me, I would not even consider moving. I would have fought it as strongly as my son fights the idea of leaving.
Or more likely it's a combination of that and distrust because he *did* move three hours away. And he *did* leave town for a month on less than a week's notice. And while he tells me he plans to come back this summer, I've experienced very recently how fluid his plans are. So a combination of looking to my self interest in terms of being able to leave, and protecting myself from the chaos of his life, are causing me to contribute to this problem.
I hope he can pull himself together too. I wonder how I can politely suggest that he get himself to therapy.
Posted by Dinah on November 22, 2005, at 19:32:58
In reply to Re: Dang that fighting to relationship! » Dinah, posted by orchid on November 22, 2005, at 6:46:17
I think he wants to do it. But I think he's just so overwhelmed right now, and so naturally disorganized, that it is difficult for him to take concrete steps to fix the situation.
He *is* going to call me tomorrow and see if a short midweek call can help keep the connection going.
But on the other hand, he admitted that there's a problem with the time he schedules me, as far as his ability to concentrate. Yet he turned around and scheduled the next session at the same time next week, despite my reminder to him of what he'd said.
I *think* that maybe part of his feeling overwhelmed is feeling a bit resentful that I am asking more from him instead of being grateful for what he is doing. Which he likely feels is stretching him thin as it is.
Or maybe I'm projecting a bit. I feel that way myself a lot these days.
Posted by daisym on November 22, 2005, at 20:04:27
In reply to Dang that fighting to relationship!, posted by Dinah on November 21, 2005, at 23:01:04
I feel so sad about all the ripple effects that Katrina continues to have on your life. You don't deserve any of this...no one does.
I have this wacked out idea that you can grieve the "old" relationship and use the grieving process to help you fight to a (new) relationship. My guess is that along the way you will figure out if the new relationship is a therapy relationship or not. I don't think you can or should give up instantaneously. It is a process that might feel like letting go and holding on at the exact same time. I don't think you trust how strong you've become but I hear you missing your emotional side and the nurturing connection you could count on. We all need to feel that, it feeds our soul and renews our capacity to give to others.
Maybe you don't need to know what comes next yet. Things are changing so much, perhaps it is a week to week thing for now. If you don't do too much future planning, there is less disappointment.
I wish I could do more for you but I'm holding both of you in my thoughts and prayers. The whole thing sounds so painful.
(((Dinah)))
Posted by annierose on November 22, 2005, at 21:13:25
In reply to Dang that fighting to relationship!, posted by Dinah on November 21, 2005, at 23:01:04
Others have said it much better than I could. Just wanted to let you know you are in my thoughts during this darn post-Kartrina-why-is-everything-all-messed-up time!
Darn, I really do wish I could wave a magic wand. Not sure I want a crystal ball, may not like what I see.
Everyone has a solid point to consider. And you don't have to decide anything at all right now. Take each session as it comes and maybe a decison will come slowly in time. Remember, you are strong. You did get through this tragedy without your T holding your stool. You did it! All by yourself.
Posted by Shortelise on November 22, 2005, at 22:38:42
In reply to Dang that fighting to relationship!, posted by Dinah on November 21, 2005, at 23:01:04
Dinah, I don't know what to say (my usual state these days. I'm pretty well but not thinking much) but want to let you know I feel for you. What an awkward position both you and your T are in.
If my T and I suffered the sort of trauma the two of you are going through, I would want very much to have the grace to give a lot to him, to forgive him everything, but I know, that like you, I would undermine myself.
I think what I might do is talk with him about anything else, talk about the weather, about our town, about the birds in the trees and the football season. I think I might bring things to a level on which we are both safe, and let things go on from there. Maybe go for a walk together if the day is nice. Maybe I'm completely wrong, but it sounds like you are both a little too delicate, too untrusting of yourselves - not each other. So a gentle, friendly approach might work?
Most times, it's not up to us to "caretake" our therapist. They have it under control, and the idea that we might want to caretake them is an indication of other things in ourselves. But at this juncture on your realtionship with him, why not try it, why not go a little farther toward him than you might in your old relationship with him? You can unblock the block between you, can't you? You seem to see it all so very clearly.
There, for what it's worth. I hope I am not saying terribly ignorant things that will upset you. It's ok with me if I say terribly ignorant things - just as long as no one feels bad!!
ShortE
Posted by Dinah on November 23, 2005, at 10:54:29
In reply to Re: Dang that fighting to relationship! » Dinah, posted by daisym on November 22, 2005, at 20:04:27
Thanks, Daisy. Prayers are always appreciated. And the caring from this board has been sooo helpful.
You're right about it being all about Katrina. I look around me and a fair amount of the city is in the same shape. Ruptured relationships, stress, flat out fear.
People aren't stranded on rooftops any more, but we're all still in crisis mode psychologically.
Sigh.
Posted by Dinah on November 23, 2005, at 10:55:59
In reply to Re: Dang that fighting to relationship! » Dinah, posted by annierose on November 22, 2005, at 21:13:25
Well, not completely by myself. :) Babble helped a lot.
I know now that I can get along without him. But I'm pretty sure I don't want to. Especially if we stay here.
I'm going to keep working on restoring the connection.
Posted by Dinah on November 23, 2005, at 10:58:48
In reply to Re: Dang that fighting to relationship! » Dinah, posted by Shortelise on November 22, 2005, at 22:38:42
I think you're right. The situation is anything but normal, and the normal expectations can't necessarily apply.
The darned guy's a moving target though. I went into our brief telephone call based on who he was Sunday, and today he's upbeat and all business. :) Again, normal I suppose. I know I'm the same way.
I'm glad to hear from you. I'm obviously immensely self absorbed right now, but I've been wondering how you were doing. I know you were in a delicate place therapeutically, and I haven't heard how that is proceeding in quite some time.
This is the end of the thread.
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