![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 7 to 31 of 31. Go back in thread:
Posted by alexandra_k on January 1, 2006, at 19:57:40
In reply to Re: trauma and cycles in the present, posted by gardenergirl on January 1, 2006, at 7:25:49
> I think that when we do this, it's because it's the known. It's our known way of interacting and of expectations of others.
yeah.
> > > and i think maybe... i do that a lot...
> I haven't observed that here.yeah.
maybe i'm not making much sense :-(
(it isn't you it is me)
yeah.
maybe i'm not making much sense :-(
> > > because i do get scared.
> > > and it is kind of self defence...
> I think that's a good insight. We often do things we don't like in ourselves when we are scared, anxious, or protecting ourselves from a perceived or anticipated hurt.how do i stop it?
> > > only...
> > > people probably need to protect themself from me really :-(
> No more than anyone does from anyone else...i think... i might be worse with that than most people... or even if i'm not... i still don't want to do that anymore :-(
> Developing insight into what's going on, and feeling safe enough to try something different is also a way to start doing something different.
insight is hard. maybe because... i don't properly have it. i can see that i do this at times... but actually saying 'now! see look i am doing it now!' is a different matter. i can't tell... for a time i can't tell whether that is what i am doing or whether i am just undermining myself and that i'm way off... i can't tell. and so... i don't know what to do. and sometimes i cycle... i think yeah it is me doing that thing again and i need to stoppit. but then... i think no it wasn't that and thats just what other people want me to believe so i tow their line... and then i feel a bit mad... and i keep going... keep on... and i vaccilate... and i hate that and i need it to stop :-( and i don't want it to happen anymore :-(
Posted by alexandra_k on January 1, 2006, at 20:06:08
In reply to Re: trauma and cycles in the present » alexandra_k, posted by Larry Hoover on January 1, 2006, at 12:01:42
> > i have been thinking...
> Were it ever otherwise, I should be looking for a pulse and respiration.heh heh :-)
> sometimes I see you persist in something that another has told you elicits discomfort. And I don't attribute that to malicious intent. More like doggedness. And, I think most people do that. I do it.ah. yes. i think i'm thinking of the same examples you are and... i agree. i think that is okay. but... i'm thinking of some different examples...
> And I think you judge yourself most harshly in those moments, when you are unable to act.
yes. but... i think we should. unless... the harsh judgement makes it still harder to act in which case it is counter-productive...
> That's what EMDR is all about. Catharsis. EMDR is like the Heimlich maneuver for the emotions.
ah. yeah.. i've read a little bit about that...
still... can't do it on myself (i don't think...) so need something else that i can do...> Oh, you mean in the catharsis? I always think of lancing a boil. In the greater scheme of time, it only hurts worse for a flash. And you soon knock yourself upside the head for having waited as long as you did.
yeah. i don't know... i worry about my functioning. i can't afford to have that disintegrate... need to keep on... need to keep keeping on... i want to get better at that. i want to be able to function even better... but i can't afford a period of reduced functioning in order to obtain that...
> Do you recall my interjection into your discussion with Dinah, the one about parcels?no.
> I don't know anna o,
well... she got a whole heap worse...
then she got better...
went on to do some pretty cool stuff...
always looked back scathingly on psychoanalysis...
she was one of the first people to do the 'catharsis' thing...
spent a fair amount of time in hospital...
Posted by gardenergirl on January 2, 2006, at 6:37:04
In reply to Re: trauma and cycles in the present » gardenergirl, posted by alexandra_k on January 1, 2006, at 19:57:40
>> > I think that's a good insight. We often do things we don't like in ourselves when we are scared, anxious, or protecting ourselves from a perceived or anticipated hurt.
>
> how do i stop it?That's a big question. One way to deal with anxiety is to approach that which makes you afraid, versus avoid it. So if you can identify what is the scary part, you can plan a different response and then try it. It will mean discomfort. You WILL feel the anxiety. But if you can get through it and come out the other side, you start to realize that you can cope and you can do something different.
>
> > > > only...
> > > > people probably need to protect themself from me really :-(
>
> > No more than anyone does from anyone else...
>
> i think... i might be worse with that than most people... or even if i'm not... i still don't want to do that anymore :-(I think I can understand that feeling. Perhaps consider looking at behaviors you want to change without adding the judgement that others need to protect themselves from you. Because that's THEIR issue/problem, not yours. You can still change behavior, but how others react to it is within their control.
>
>
> insight is hard. maybe because... i don't properly have it. i can see that i do this at times... but actually saying 'now! see look i am doing it now!' is a different matter. i can't tell... for a time i can't tell whether that is what i am doing or whether i am just undermining myself and that i'm way off... i can't tell. and so... i don't know what to do. and sometimes i cycle... i think yeah it is me doing that thing again and i need to stoppit. but then... i think no it wasn't that and thats just what other people want me to believe so i tow their line... and then i feel a bit mad... and i keep going... keep on... and i vaccilate... and i hate that and i need it to stop :-( and i don't want it to happen anymore :-(It IS hard. I get very annoyed when I "catch" myself doing the same pattern. Sometimes I catch it sooner rather than later, but I ask myself, "How did I get into this again?" This is where having a T or someone you trust to talk about it with can help. They can help you see the patterns, and also help you figure out how you got in and how to get out. And then you can also eventually start to plan for situations when you know it's likely to occur, and plan strategies to keep you "on task" versus getting "sucked in", as I call it in my case.
But I think we never ever completely can avoid it playing out again at some point in our lives. It's too ingrained and in times of increased stress, we can slip into it without realizing at first. As my T says, you are able to pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and get back to business much quicker and easier than at first, when it was a major blow, and you were lying there nearly unconscious and dazed.
But it doesn't happen overnight. And it's not a straight line of progress. In some ways, that's the beauty and art of the therapy process, but it's also a reflection, I think, of our humanity and of life.
I wish you could have a powerful and sustained therapy experience now, when you seem to be thinking about yourself and what you want. I realize I'm so fortunate in my situation. I wish everyone could have therapy as easily as I can.
((((alex))))
gg
>
>
>
Posted by Larry Hoover on January 2, 2006, at 13:33:05
In reply to Re: trauma and cycles in the present » Larry Hoover, posted by alexandra_k on January 1, 2006, at 20:06:08
> > sometimes I see you persist in something that another has told you elicits discomfort. And I don't attribute that to malicious intent. More like doggedness. And, I think most people do that. I do it.
>
> ah. yes. i think i'm thinking of the same examples you are and... i agree. i think that is okay. but... i'm thinking of some different examples...Oh. And considering what you've talked about with others, I think I must have missed it. Or, maybe you spoke in code? Girls do say some things in code. I didn't get a decoder ring.
> > And I think you judge yourself most harshly in those moments, when you are unable to act.
>
> yes. but... i think we should. unless... the harsh judgement makes it still harder to act in which case it is counter-productive...I recall you ruminating on such, that's all.
> > That's what EMDR is all about. Catharsis. EMDR is like the Heimlich maneuver for the emotions.
>
> ah. yeah.. i've read a little bit about that...
> still... can't do it on myself (i don't think...) so need something else that i can do...No, it is definitely not a do-it-yourself. One must have a trained psychotherapist, a psychotherapist+. There is an issue with respect to managing the catharsis, the rate or pace at which it comes. A capacity issue. And you're in constant feedback with one another.
> > Oh, you mean in the catharsis? I always think of lancing a boil. In the greater scheme of time, it only hurts worse for a flash. And you soon knock yourself upside the head for having waited as long as you did.
>
> yeah. i don't know... i worry about my functioning. i can't afford to have that disintegrate... need to keep on... need to keep keeping on... i want to get better at that. i want to be able to function even better... but i can't afford a period of reduced functioning in order to obtain that...How is your functioning now? You're going to be facing this emotional charge, willing or unwilling. The fact that it has recently been intense suggests to me that you are ripe for managing it. I understand, all too well, that you have limited opportunities at present, to have supportive care. I don't know what to suggest in the realm of self-management. Other than that process I reference in that other thread (below).
The thing that is unknowable is timing. Time is not an attribute I would assign to these emotional memories.
> > Do you recall my interjection into your discussion with Dinah, the one about parcels?
>
> no.You see how my memory is? I remember a gist word, at best. I wonder how the darn thing works at all, some times.
"emotional encapsulation" I spoke fairly early in the thread, and later you and Dinah pretty much had a dialogue. But I start in here: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20051216/msgs/590679.html
> > I don't know anna o,
>
> well... she got a whole heap worse...
> then she got better...
> went on to do some pretty cool stuff...
> always looked back scathingly on psychoanalysis...She was one of Freud's experiments? Yes, I didn't think you were referring to that anna.
> she was one of the first people to do the 'catharsis' thing...
> spent a fair amount of time in hospital...There is a huge issue of social factors. Of being a novelty. I hesitate to extrapolate from such a singular case. But I haven't read about her later experiences.
Lar
Posted by Damos on January 2, 2006, at 22:13:58
In reply to trauma and cycles in the present, posted by alexandra_k on December 31, 2005, at 18:57:04
> i have been thinking...
Me too, so forgive me if this is an incomprehensible mish-mosh.
>
> about trauma.
> about the notion that if someone has experienced trauma... then they relive that over and over and over.Like Lar, I though this was pretty much accepted as fact
> they were victimised and they go on to elicit that same victimisation from new people in their life...Think this is true for some people too. No, I d*mn well know it is. Seen people do it. But it's not a conscious choice, not by a long way. I think it was gg who said it was 'because it's the known', and I think that's true. Seems like the brain doesn't distinguish between good and bad patterns so much as it does familiar and unfamiliar and there's the trap.
>
> and i think maybe... i do that a little...Well, given what I know of your life experience I think that's pretty reasonable and completely understandable. If you grow up in an environment that is invalidating and disqualifying, then it only makes sense that you'd probably invalidate your own emotions, feelings and responses an dprobably have unrealistic expectations of yourself in respect of your behaviour.
> but sometimes... they were victimised and they go on to persecute in the way they were persecuted...In some cases that's true, the abused becomes the abuser or whatever. But again, I think it's more because it's all they 'know'. I don't think they choose to be perpetuate the cycle, they just don't know any other way of being.
> and i think maybe... i do that a lot...Can't say I've ever seen evidence of it, but that's not what's important. The fact that you think that maybe you do, for whatever reason, is what's important. I'd like to understand what makes you think that.
> i think...
> i do that :-(
> and i hurt the people i care about the most.
> :-(
> because i do get scared.
> and it is kind of self defence...
> only...
> people probably need to protect themself from me really :-(
>
> which pains me so much :-(
> and comes back to the truth in the 'i'm not fit for human company' idea...Sorry Alex but I can't subscribe to that theory. If you were talking about me, yeah then I'd agree, but not you. Delightful and enchanting are the words that come to mind. There is just no way someone who would go so far out of their way to make a totally strange total stranger feel so welcome, safe and comfortable could be 'not fit for human company.' I think it's more about finding human company that fits. And even in the best fits there are hurts and upsets and misunderstandings. Can honestly say that there has never been a moment were I felt I need to protect myself from you. Quite the opposite in fact, you make being open and vulnerable feels safe, which is kinda scary.
Think responding to this post was so hard because it meant admitting that these are thought I have about myself an awful lot. And I know it results in some strange push-pull, hot-cold, go away - don't leave me behaviour. Don't actually know which scares me more, the thought that I'm growing to love and care for someone, or the thought that someone may love and care for me. Probably the latter - sigh.
And again, whether I see evidence of it or not is not what matters. If that's what you see and feel happens I believe you, and want to understand more about how you see that manifesting.
Think Tamar and gg in what they've said about other people feeling hurt. It's a valuable insight that you can see this
> how are you supposed to stop with that???Awareness, observation, acceptance and validation. Though not necessarily in that order. Being accepted for who and how and what you are is key. Having your emotions, thoughts, feelings and responses validated makes a world of difference too. Doesn't matter whether they're extreme or contradictory or whatever - they're yours and they're valid. It's these things that create the 'safe space' to work on stuff, to experiment with new ways of being.
> i have heard...
>
> abbreaction.
> thats what that is supposed to be about.
> if you can experience the initial trauma...
> and work through that...
> then it will stop the cycle being played out over and over indefinitely.
>
> does that really work do people think?
>
> what i've read about it...
>
> hard to say...
>
> do things have to get worse in order to get better?
>
> what if...
>
> you relive it...
>
> and can't find your way back out?
>
> is that how...
>
> you learn about the distinction between the present and the past?
>
> cause they get all messed up and tangled together for me... and i can't tell where i am and what i'm responding / reacting to.
>
> or...
>
> does it just make people worse...
>
> (like anna o...)
>
> etc.I've heard and read conflicting stuff about this and honestly I don't know. Guess I agree with Tamar that you probably *feel* worse. Also don't think you necessarily have to relive it as much as work with the *meaning* of it to you and how it manifests in the present. Something I actually found myself doing on occassions when I thought I was getting confused with now stuff and then stuff was taking a quick status check: Name, today's date, current age, where I am, who I'm with, what we're doing. I actually said out loud once to a person I was talking to; "Let's be absolutely clear about this, you are not XXXXX, okay."
Sorry to waffle on so long.
(((((Alex)))))
Posted by alexandra_k on January 2, 2006, at 23:38:44
In reply to Re: trauma and cycles in the present ?alexandra_k, posted by gardenergirl on January 2, 2006, at 6:37:04
> Perhaps consider looking at behaviors you want to change without adding the judgement that others need to protect themselves from you. Because that's THEIR issue/problem, not yours. You can still change behavior, but how others react to it is within their control.
Yeah. But I think I do cause other people pain sometimes :-(
And yeah. Sometimes I think that I need to do what I did... But then sometimes I see that I was way overreacting... And that I hurt them :-(
Maybe... Hopefully... I am getting better at dealing with it than I used to though. And maybe... The hurt isn't as bad as I think it is...
> I wish you could have a powerful and sustained therapy experience now, when you seem to be thinking about yourself and what you want. I realize I'm so fortunate in my situation. I wish everyone could have therapy as easily as I can.
I think...
I need to believe that I don't need a therapist. That therapy is more likely to harm me than help me. And given my history with therapy... I think there is some relatively objective evidence for that.
I need to believe that.
And maybe...
Just maybe...
It is the truth that I am better off doing this myself... With a bit of help from my friends, of course. But not with a t.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 2, 2006, at 23:39:26
In reply to Re: trauma and cycles in the present » gardenergirl, posted by alexandra_k on January 2, 2006, at 23:38:44
and it isn't second best.
and don't even get me started...
Posted by alexandra_k on January 2, 2006, at 23:48:38
In reply to Re: trauma and cycles in the present ?alexandra_k, posted by Larry Hoover on January 2, 2006, at 13:33:05
> Oh. And considering what you've talked about with others, I think I must have missed it. Or, maybe you spoke in code? Girls do say some things in code. I didn't get a decoder ring.
Hey. I didn't get a decoder ring either. I don't think... Anybody knows precisely what I'm talking about. But thats okay. It doesn't matter too much. Tis bound to happen again and I'll have an example for ya next time ;-)
> I recall you ruminating on such, that's all.Yeah. And sometimes... ruminating my way around in circles yeah. :-(
> How is your functioning now?I don't know how to answer that...
From my perspective... It is borderline. And it is borderline much of the time. Sometimes... I cope with stress / pressure pretty well and come to the party no problem. Othertimes... I do not cope with it very well at all and I freak out and am a risk to myself.Or... I am fairly miserable at any rate... And not able to do anything productive... And... Not able to deal with people (too much risk of reacting from paranoia even though rationally I know not to).
So... Is any time a good time?
Not really.
I don't know.
I don't know what to say.> "emotional encapsulation" I spoke fairly early in the thread, and later you and Dinah pretty much had a dialogue. But I start in here: http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/psycho/20051216/msgs/590679.html
hey. yeah. i had a bit of trouble following what you were saying. talking about slightly different things or something. i do get a lot confused sometimes. and i have a pretty bad headache... i shall come back tomorrow (or the next day) and i'll look at it properly..
((((larry)))))
sorry i gave you a hard time on social...
i can be a lot anal sometimes... :-(
still... populations not individuals... what do you know ;-)
> I hesitate to extrapolate from such a singular case.Hmm. Well she was pretty pissed off I suppose.
> But I haven't read about her later experiences.
She did a lot for womans sufferage etc.
>
Posted by alexandra_k on January 2, 2006, at 23:51:00
In reply to Re: trauma and cycles in the present ?alexandra_k, posted by Damos on January 2, 2006, at 22:13:58
hey.
thanks for your response.i'm going to have to get back to you :-(
sorry...
spent the day with my mother and my half sister and her family. and my mothers x boyfriend from when i was a kid...
not such a good day.
my half sister was okay...
last time i saw her...
my brothers funeral about 5 or 6 years ago...:-(
Posted by alexandra_k on January 2, 2006, at 23:52:34
In reply to Re: trauma and cycles in the present » Damos, posted by alexandra_k on January 2, 2006, at 23:51:00
maybe...
it is just this family contact...
is bringing stuff up.
my mother has this uncanny ability...
to reach inside you and manipulate your emotions
so all you are is a conduit for her feeling...
and this horrible numbness :-(
it is going to hurt tonight :-(
i'm sorry :-(
Posted by gardenergirl on January 3, 2006, at 2:49:35
In reply to Re: trauma and cycles in the present raquo; gardenergirl, posted by alexandra_k on January 2, 2006, at 23:39:26
I certainly did not mean to suggest that you must have therapy in order to experience growth.
Sorry.
gg
Posted by Damos on January 3, 2006, at 15:11:15
In reply to Re: trauma and cycles in the present raquo; Damos, posted by alexandra_k on January 2, 2006, at 23:52:34
Hey there's nothing to be sorry for, okay. I'm just really sorry you had to go through that today.
Don't worry about responding to my gibber, just focus on taking good care of you. Hope the headache is better.
((((((((((Alex))))))))))
Posted by alexandra_k on January 3, 2006, at 19:24:29
In reply to Sorry, that was presumptuous of me » alexandra_k, posted by gardenergirl on January 3, 2006, at 2:49:35
> I certainly did not mean to suggest that you must have therapy in order to experience growth.
you didn't suggest that.
i think...
i over-react when people mention therapy for me
i'm sorry :-(
i think...
i should avoid this board...
or maybe it is about my initiating threads over on this board...
maybe i should stop doing that...
(and that isn't in response to you... because... this comes up a lot... it is just that when i'm struggling i can get a little snappy... sorry)
:-(
Posted by alexandra_k on January 3, 2006, at 20:30:11
In reply to Re: trauma and cycles in the present » alexandra_k, posted by Damos on January 2, 2006, at 22:13:58
hey...
i have been fairly bad lately at responding properly to people... need more time on the boards... and it is a bit harder to get that now...
but the buildings are open
YAY!!!!!!!
:-)
though that being said i have lost after hours access (boo hiss).anyway...
i wanted to respond to you properly...
but i'm not sure what to say...
have been spinning... spinning... spinning along. since i finished my work really. i think... too much time on my hands isn't so much of a good thing... because i tend to 'create' dramas...
:-(
hmmm.
need to get back into doing something...
have decided on some things to do...
should make a list or two...
and i'm going to download that pdf writer thingimie and have a play...
:-)
hmmmm.
don't know what to say... sorry...
:-)
how are you doing?
have you melted yet???;-)
Posted by Damos on January 3, 2006, at 22:34:07
In reply to Re: trauma and cycles in the present » Damos, posted by alexandra_k on January 3, 2006, at 20:30:11
> hey...
Hey 2-U-2 :-)
>
> i have been fairly bad lately at responding properly to people... need more time on the boards... and it is a bit harder to get that now...Don't worry about it it's okay. People understand, we're all just glad you're here as much as you are.
>
> but the buildings are open
> YAY!!!!!!!
> :-)YAY!!!!!!!!
> though that being said i have lost after hours access (boo hiss).GRRRRHHHHHH BOO HISS
>
> anyway...
>
> i wanted to respond to you properly...
>
> but i'm not sure what to say...That's okay, you don't need to say anything. Anyways I'm not that sure that what I posted made much sense anyway.
> have been spinning... spinning... spinning along. since i finished my work really. i think... too much time on my hands isn't so much of a good thing... because i tend to 'create' dramas...
>
> :-(Ah, I have a tendency to 'spin' a bit too when not focused on something specific (or interesting). Sounds kinda like what I've been doing for the last 7 months :-(
>
> hmmm.
>
> need to get back into doing something...
>
> have decided on some things to do...
>
> should make a list or two...So whatcha got in mind?
> and i'm going to download that pdf writer thingimie and have a play...There's Publish PDF by Manaccom (I think) think it's about $100 Aussie that might be worth investigating if you'll be doing it a lot. Probably have it at the Powerhouse.
>
> :-)
>
> hmmmm.
>
> don't know what to say... sorry...No need for sorry you duffer =0)
>
> :-)
>
> how are you doing?
> have you melted yet???
>
> ;-)Nah haven't melted yet, puppy didn't much like the heat though. Doin' okay I guess. nice and cool today ;-)
Posted by JenStar on January 3, 2006, at 23:02:41
In reply to trauma and cycles in the present, posted by alexandra_k on December 31, 2005, at 18:57:04
hi alexandra,
I don't think you are doomed to fall into that destructive cycle. It's so positive that you recognize patterns in yourself -- "asking" others to mistreat you, and treating others with mistrust. Because now that you see it, you can change it.I truly believe that each of us CAN change our own behavior. Sometimes changing behavior leads to mental changes, which seems hard, but works.
For example, a shy person can take speech coaching lessons and practice looking people in the eye. She's still dying inside, but acting the part of a successful communicator, and over time it gets easier, until it "becomes" her.
And I think you can do that too, although it might be harder, if you practice the behaviors that demonstrate the attitude you want towards others, and from others.
So I think it's not necessary, or even a good idea, to try and mimic the original trauma. You already lived it once, and know it in your heart. I think it's better to move forward with intent to heal, intent to change behaviors, and intent to reconnect with people in a new way.
What do you think? Is that all junk, or does any of it seem like it might be useful?
I hope you find a way to dow aht you want to do.
take care,
JenStar
Posted by JenStar on January 3, 2006, at 23:06:52
In reply to Re: trauma and cycles in the present » alexandra_k, posted by JenStar on January 3, 2006, at 23:02:41
But I also want to say that I have not seen any abusive behaviors from you on this board. I assume you're talking about 'real life' experiences? Or maybe treating yourself a bit too harshly?
JenStar
Posted by alexandra_k on January 3, 2006, at 23:40:37
In reply to Re: trauma and cycles in the present » alexandra_k, posted by Damos on January 3, 2006, at 22:34:07
> Don't worry about it it's okay.
:-)
Thanks.
Stupid phone won't turn on again...> So whatcha got in mind?
Reading... Couple books I want to read before I go. And sort out the PDF thing. Thuso posted a link to one you can download for 25 days so I was going to do that. And... Tidy up some of my old work and my thesis and put that into PDF... I think that will keep me busy ;-)
> There's Publish PDF by Manaccom (I think) think it's about $100 Aussie that might be worth investigating if you'll be doing it a lot. Probably have it at the Powerhouse.Yeah. I don't think... I'll be doing it a lot. 25 days is a long time... And then there are all those ones where you can do 6 documents ;-) With a variety of computers... I'm sure I'll get on just fine ;-)
> Nah haven't melted yet, puppy didn't much like the heat though. Doin' okay I guess. nice and cool today ;-)
I suppose it is only 35 or something like that ;-)
Posted by alexandra_k on January 3, 2006, at 23:42:39
In reply to Re: trauma and cycles in the present » alexandra_k, posted by JenStar on January 3, 2006, at 23:02:41
> I think it's better to move forward with intent to heal, intent to change behaviors, and intent to reconnect with people in a new way.
yes... that is what i need to do. ((((jenstar)))) thank you.
sometimes... it doesn't feel like it is enough. but really... what else is there to be done?
Posted by alexandra_k on January 3, 2006, at 23:44:57
In reply to Re: trauma and cycles in the present » JenStar, posted by JenStar on January 3, 2006, at 23:06:52
> But I also want to say that I have not seen any abusive behaviors from you on this board. I assume you're talking about 'real life' experiences? Or maybe treating yourself a bit too harshly?
mm. i don't think people really get what i'm talking about (but thats okay - i don't mean to be cryptic - but thats okay).
i'm not really talking about 'abusive behaviours' in the sense that... that is fairly extreme.
i'm talking about less extreme behaviours.
yup.
but...
the pattern is still there...
Posted by Damos on January 4, 2006, at 16:25:42
In reply to Re: trauma and cycles in the present » Damos, posted by alexandra_k on January 3, 2006, at 23:40:37
> :-)
> Thanks.
> Stupid phone won't turn on again...GRRRRRRHHHHHHH!!!!!!!
> Reading... Couple books I want to read before I go. And sort out the PDF thing. Thuso posted a link to one you can download for 25 days so I was going to do that. And... Tidy up some of my old work and my thesis and put that into PDF... I think that will keep me busy ;-)Can you believe I haven't read a book in 2 and a bit months. Started several but just lose it around page 50. Sure sounds like converting your stuff to PDFs will keep you busy.
> I suppose it is only 35 or something like that ;-)
Actually only mid 20's and again today, even got drizzle today.
So's we don't get redirected. Hurtful is what I'd call the types of things that I was thinking you meant. Still not deliberate though. The kinds of things you kick yourself for saying and doing for the next few hours/days/weeks/months/years. And you're right it's always the people that matter most that seem to cop it. In a weird way it's like I hurt them a little now in order to protect them from me and the serious hurt I know I'll cause them later. Or I do stuff to push them away now because it'll hurt less now than if I let myself 'feel' and get attached and then they leave or hurt me or whatever like everyone always does. What hurts most is that deep down you know you've hurt yourself the most, and that what happened wasn't so much about anything they said or did as it is about what you think and feel about yourself. At least it is for me. But I'm trying hard not to do it anymore. Like JenStar said conscious intent not to keep doing those things is a good place to start. Having people around who give you the space and understanding to be kinda messy helps too.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 5, 2006, at 20:15:14
In reply to Re: trauma and cycles in the present, posted by Damos on January 4, 2006, at 16:25:42
hey. turning things into pdf is actually really easy. you just click the icon and it just does it. the only trouble is that the way the printer wouldn't print it the way it showed up on the screen in word... well the pdf won't save it the way it shows up on the screen in word... it just seems to inherit the same bunch of problems that the printer had with it.
sigh.
i dunno.
i really should learn how to use a computer one day... i just muddle along and manage to figure things out eventually...
what you said makes a lot of sense... i have been spinning rather. not making much sense. not to other people... and not to myself either. i have been trying to sort some stuff out but having immense difficulty in even describing what was troubling me...
i'm sorry...
i know you put a lot of thought into your posts to me...
and other people too...
my brain just spins around and doesn't work very well sometimes.
i hope you are doing alright.
it is a bit cold and windy today...
Posted by Damos on January 5, 2006, at 20:59:56
In reply to Re: trauma and cycles in the present » Damos, posted by alexandra_k on January 5, 2006, at 20:15:14
> i really should learn how to use a computer one day... i just muddle along and manage to figure things out eventually...
LOL I think I've turned bumblability into an artform when it comes to computer use =0)
> what you said makes a lot of sense...That'd be a first ;-)
>i have been spinning rather. not making much sense. not to other people... and not to myself either. i have been trying to sort some stuff out but having immense difficulty in even describing what was troubling me...
Don't you just hate those itches you can't quite scratch.
> i'm sorry...No need to be sorry, and nothing to be sorry for. The Native American Indians say "You talk and talk until *the talk* starts." So you just post whatever, whenever and we'll just talk like we do and the stuff will come when it's ready to come.
> i know you put a lot of thought into your posts to me...
>
> and other people too...No more than you or anyone else does. But thanks.
> i hope you are doing alright.Yeah not bad, a little distant but okay.
> it is a bit cold and windy today...Same here.
Take care okay.
Posted by alexandra_k on January 5, 2006, at 22:11:49
In reply to Re: trauma and cycles in the present » alexandra_k, posted by Damos on January 5, 2006, at 20:59:56
> Don't you just hate those itches you can't quite scratch.
yep.
i'm starting to think... that might be the story of my life really... or at least... one fairly significant strand in the story of my life...
ever since i can remember i have been compulsively asking myself
'what is wrong with me?'
'what is wrong with me?'
the answer
'nothing is wrong with you'
isn't sufficient
because...
i hurt
sometimes
i hurt a lotbut i guess... i've been looking for an answer...
and i guess...
in searching for an answer...
well... i'm thinking that has made me vulnerable to people telling me (in an authorative tone)
'*this* is what is wrong with you'
and there was a story
always a story
a story of the day
week
month
yearand i'm thinking about the notion that there is a problem...
there is something wrong...and symptoms are manifestations of the underlying problem
and some people say the trouble with behaviourism
or with treatments that focus on treating the symptoms
is that they do not address the underlying problem
and that a consequence of that is that...
new symptoms will manifestand i'm thinking there may be some truth to that...
with respect to symptoms
that they vary
along with the story of the day
week
month
year
centuryso the symptoms are constrained by social factors
but really
the problem
is that sometimes it hurts a lotsometimes it hurts a lot
and there it is.
and the stories we tell...
ourselves...
other people...in order to get a little help...
f*cking system that makes people worse in order to make them better
in order to have a justification for treating them at alland the consequence of tightening up the DSM criteria
is only going to be an increase in amnesia
for f*ck sake...
:-(
but of course i'm okay really.
i'm just trying to figure whether appreciating this is the cure or not
(depends on whether mps is a social construction in the second or third sense you see)
but even if you appreciate that
even if you dowill that help with the pain???????
methinks not.
i dunno.
((((Damos))))
Posted by Damos on January 8, 2006, at 17:07:57
In reply to Re: trauma and cycles in the present » Damos, posted by alexandra_k on January 5, 2006, at 22:11:49
Sorry to take so long to get back to you :-(
> > Don't you just hate those itches you can't quite scratch.
>
> yep.
>
> i'm starting to think... that might be the story of my life really... or at least... one fairly significant strand in the story of my life...I can understand that :-(
> ever since i can remember i have been compulsively asking myself
> 'what is wrong with me?'
> 'what is wrong with me?'
> the answer
> 'nothing is wrong with you'
> isn't sufficient
> because...
> i hurt
> sometimes
> i hurt a lotWell that makes perfect sense to me and actually made me realise something about myself too. For whatever reason I've just always accepted it as an absolute fact that I was a stupid, useless, worthless piece of sh*t that no-one could love. Never questioned it. But that's another story. Back to you.
I remember from when I did a bit of surveying stuff that the tiniest change in the wording of a question can significantly alter/influence the responses. So if I'm asking the wrong question or simply asking it in the wrong way, I can gather all the data in the world and it won't help me a bit. So maybe it's not asking the question that's causing problems, maybe it's the question you're asking. Which kinda leads to what you've written below.
You see I think you actually answered your own question in a sense.
"What is wrong with me?"
"I hurt."
"Sometimes I hurt a lot"When I was reading this I kinda went back in my head to when I was a kid and went to the doctor, and to how the conversations went. And they were kind of like that. And importantly there was diagnosis before prescription. Question and answer.
"I hurt"
"Where does it hurt?"
"Inside"
"Can you show me where?"
"How does it hurt?"And so on and so on.
And the good thing about questions is there's no limit to how many you can ask, no laws about which ones you can ask. Sometimes simply changing from "What if?" to "So what?" can help change your perspective on things too.
> but i guess... i've been looking for an answer...
>
> and i guess...
>
> in searching for an answer...
>
> well... i'm thinking that has made me vulnerable to people telling me (in an authorative tone)
> '*this* is what is wrong with you'
> and there was a story
> always a story
> a story of the day
> week
> month
> yearAnd all of that makes perfect sense. The overwhelming need for an answer would have made the willingness to believe and the attachment to each *this* all the stronger. And all of this would have been made stronger by having had your views and opinions about anything disqualified by one of the key figures in your life. Your whole paradigm would have been that 'they' must be right, and that 'they' must know better that me. Worst of all I kind of suspect that their finding something acted almost as an affirmation of sorts, maybe even acted as an acceptance of you in a way. Maybe?
The question "What is wrong with me?" is based in a belief that something is wrong 'with me'. And it's the underlying belief that's the problem, not the question. Their finding a 'this is what's wrong with you', only served to reinforce that belief.
> and i'm thinking about the notion that there is a problem...
> there is something wrong...
>
> and symptoms are manifestations of the underlying problem
>
> and some people say the trouble with behaviourism
> or with treatments that focus on treating the symptoms
> is that they do not address the underlying problem
> and that a consequence of that is that...
> new symptoms will manifest
> and i'm thinking there may be some truth to that...And you'd be right. The classic example is someone who presents with a headache and is treated with Panadol (headache pills) to treat the immediate symptom. When in fact the underlying cause is a brain tumor. It happens, so there's a lot of truth in what you say.
Using my alergies as an example. You can treat the itching, or the fever, or any of the other symptoms, but unless you treat the underlying reaction different symptons will continue to manifest, and do.
I guess this is one of the attractions to Eastern medicine and alternate therapies for me. The treatment of the whole person. The physical, spiritual, emotional an mental. Sometimes the person gets lost in the symptoms and the chase to find a label to put on them. And sadly there is a tendancy (natural) to become your label.
> with respect to symptoms
> that they vary
> along with the story of the day
> week
> month
> year
> century
>
> so the symptoms are constrained by social factors> but really
> the problem
> is that sometimes it hurts a lot
>
> sometimes it hurts a lot
>
> and there it is.
>
> and the stories we tell...
> ourselves...
> other people...
>
> in order to get a little help...
>
> f*cking system that makes people worse in order to make them better
> in order to have a justification for treating them at allIn effect you become what you *need* to be in order to get a little help. You exhibit what they reinforce. You report what they want to hear.
> and the consequence of tightening up the DSM criteria
>
> is only going to be an increase in amnesia
>
> for f*ck sake...
>
> :-(And they don't see that they are observing through a series of filters. The DSM, their own beliefs about certain conditions, their experience. So they are not purely objective becasue they are no viewing the assumptions that they are seeing you through. GRRRRRHHH!!!!! And assumptions lead to judgements and around we go.
> but of course i'm okay really.As Ada once asked me "Who are you trying to convince, me or you?" ;-)
> i'm just trying to figure whether appreciating this is the cure or not
>
> (depends on whether mps is a social construction in the second or third sense you see)Oh no the dreaded 'C' word. While it might not be a cure I think it's an important step along the way. Here's a spin for you. I don't believe it matters either way. I believe that it is your underlying belief that matters. Because whether you like it or not you tend to accept stuff that supports your beliefs and rejects stuff that doesn't. Just like I reject it when people say I'm nice (hate that word). Until I can change that belief I'll latch onto anything that supports my self image and reject stuff that doesn't. Worse yet I'll engineer situations to reinforce it without consciously realising it.
> but even if you appreciate that
> even if you do
>
> will that help with the pain???????
>
> methinks not.
>
> i dunno.So let me ask you, if we change from asking "What is wrong with me?" to "Why do I hurt, sometimes a lot?" What difference does that make. If we accept the pain as an indicator of something not right, but not of some flaw in you, where does that move us. What questions can we ask about the pain that will help us?
I think this post does help in lots of ways. Paradigms, perspectives, beliefs and values. Much power lies within them.
I'm sorry you hurt Alex. I'm sorry it's hard to let people see that. It's okay to let me see, it's okay to share it with me if you want to.
(((((Alex)))))
This is the end of the thread.
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