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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by raisinb on April 6, 2009, at 20:06:58
In reply to Re: my therapist ruined my session, posted by antigua3 on April 6, 2009, at 19:40:56
Thank you, antigua. It's hard to go back for another session when you feel like the other person doesn't want you to be there (and said so pretty clearly).
Posted by seldomseen on April 6, 2009, at 21:23:15
In reply to Re: my therapist ruined my session » seldomseen, posted by raisinb on April 6, 2009, at 20:03:00
Raisin, I would be confused too and more than a little hurt. TO be honest, I don't know what I do.
When I feel like that, usually the place I need to be is back in the therapist office.
It sounds like maybe she IS trying. In your heart, what do you think is going on? What about your brain?
I'm so sorry, keep us posted.
I'll give her a good cyber-whack if you like.
Seldom.
Posted by raisinb on April 6, 2009, at 21:58:19
In reply to Re: my therapist ruined my session, posted by seldomseen on April 6, 2009, at 21:23:15
Hi Seldom--
After I called, she left me three messages trying to connect. But I've had a couple drinks and a Xanax by now, and I don't want to talk if I'm incoherent. I suppose I also wanted to listen to the messages to see if I could glean anything from that. So she is trying, but...I can't get that comment out of my head, and I suppose I won't anytime soon.My heart says this: oh, she didn't mean what I thought she meant--she can't, not after all the things she said about how much she cares, how much she wants to do this. But then, I'm famous for believing what I want to believe--especially about her--not facing reality. And possibly the meanings of what she said have not really sunk in yet.
My brain: Raisin, you're beating your head against a brick wall. You've always known she doesn't really care that much--why don't you value yourself a little higher than to stay in a relationship so unequal and rejecting. Isn't there a better therapy out there? Why am I selling myself so short? Is this a method of self-hatred or self-punishment, to try and get caring from someone who can't or won't give it? Is all my progress gearing me to the point where I can go find something better? Why don't I have the courage and the self-worth to take that step?
So there's the struggle.
Posted by raisinb on April 6, 2009, at 22:02:32
In reply to Re: my therapist ruined my session, posted by seldomseen on April 6, 2009, at 21:23:15
I'm also, to tell you the truth, suspicious about why she said this *now*. Can it be that it's too much work for her now that she's back?
There has also been a pattern in the past (she doesn't agree, but I have perceived it)--in any session where I get to her emotionally--she cries, etc. (like the session before today's) she does something to push me away (I believe, because she can't handle it or me).
Posted by Dinah on April 6, 2009, at 22:46:48
In reply to Re: my therapist ruined my session » seldomseen, posted by raisinb on April 6, 2009, at 22:02:32
This seems totally out of character for her to have said, from all you've said about her.
When someone does something that out of character, I generally do wonder if some miscommunication of some sort has occurred. I doubt she wanted you to leave. She was probably just trying to figure out what she could say.
As ss suggested, could she have been trying (with poor success) to point out that the experience is necessarily different on the other side of the couch? My therapist has also pointed out that the feelings even the fondest of therapists has is different than the feelings a client has. As he says, he is an integral part of my support system. I am not an integral part of his. I can't be. If he felt for me as I feel for him, he couldn't function as a therapist to me.
Maybe she does have some pattern of screwing things up after an emotional session. But I doubt she meant what she said in any but a benign sense, based on what you've told me.
By the way, my brain cell count dropped quite a bit after my son was born. Goodness knows what happened half the time between my brain and my mouth, but I'm reasonably sure that what came out of my lips wasn't at all what started from my brain any number of times.
I know it's hard, but maybe try to find out what she intended to say?
(((Raisinb)))
Therapists!
Posted by raisinb on April 6, 2009, at 23:40:05
In reply to Re: my therapist ruined my session » raisinb, posted by Dinah on April 6, 2009, at 22:46:48
Well...maybe I have been misrepresenting her and our relationship...just because I wanted to believe so badly that it was strong and real. After all, she has said extremely hurtful, rejecting things before, and I let them go, because I was trying to see things in the greater context of our relationship and other, wonderful things she's said. But perhaps I just wasn't attending to the reality the way I should have. Maybe I just wanted to believe everything would be okay and that I hadn't wasted this huge time and emotional energy, and that my perceptions were so off. How can you say, to the same person, in a space of a few months, "I care about you very much, raisin," and "please call me, if you're struggling," and then "I can't promise you I'll never feel indifferent about this therapy" (a comment from several months ago) and "I'll never feel as emotionally connected as you" ? (Huh? this is why I never leave and never really commit).
I hope you are right, Dinah. Right now I'm sick of the whole thing and I want a therapist who won't be so back and forth. I wish I could find someone who unambivalently wants to be there (which she claims she does, then says things like this). I'm tired.
Your interpretation is the interpretation I'd like to believe. Sure, therapists are never quite as emotionally invested as their clients. That's not something I have trouble accepting--or at least, I recognize I need to. But--she was speaking out of her real, true feelings in that moment (more accurately, her lack of feelings). How do you get beyond that, exactly? And why should I? Is that right for my emotional growth and self-acceptance?
Crap.
Posted by rskontos on April 7, 2009, at 0:34:04
In reply to Re: my therapist ruined my session » seldomseen, posted by raisinb on April 6, 2009, at 21:58:19
>>>My brain: Raisin, you're beating your head against a brick wall. You've always known she doesn't really care that much--why don't you value yourself a little higher than to stay in a relationship so unequal and rejecting. Isn't there a better therapy out there? Why am I selling myself so short? Is this a method of self-hatred or self-punishment, to try and get caring from someone who can't or won't give it? Is all my progress gearing me to the point where I can go find something better? Why don't I have the courage and the self-worth to take that step?>>>>
First of all raisin, the above is more about that internal mess-up dialogue we all have. It is the past rearing its ugly head.
I admit if my t said what yours did, I would probably get up and leave and never come back.
I think something else you said in your post to Seldom, really bothered me. It was about her crying. I don't think I would ever feel comfortable with my therapist crying. He is the professional. He needs to be beyond where I am and I don't get the sense she is really in the game.
Now granted babies take a toll especially in the beginning when sleep is a distant memory, but that is frankly her problem.
If she can't be a good therapist right now, she needs to not do harm and I think with the lack of consistency she is.
Please take care of you, tell her how you feel. She needs to be emotionally connected after 4 years, I mean how do you be someone's therapist that long and then make that statement.
I am glad she called but if she hadn't said what she did, she would not have needed to. Maybe she needs to think before she speaks.
Again, I hope I am not off base but she worries me for you. take care of yourself.
Sometimes I hate therapy you know.
rsk
Posted by Dinah on April 7, 2009, at 8:00:24
In reply to Re: my therapist ruined my session » Dinah, posted by raisinb on April 6, 2009, at 23:40:05
> "I can't promise you I'll never feel indifferent about this therapy"
Hard to say without context, tone of voice, etc. But FWIW I can see my therapist saying this, and I can see myself crying. What he would mean is that feelings come and go. At times *I* feel indifferent about this therapy. I'm sure at times he *feels* indifferent. And I'll pick that up and feel hurt. But it doesn't mean he *is* indifferent to me, or to the therapy.
Stuff goes on in his life that affects what I'm "feeling" from him in that room.
There's a great line in that movie Four Seasons with Alan Alda. About marriages being like a wave. Sometimes there are crests, and you look at your spouse and are filled with so much love. Sometimes there are troughs, where you don't much care for your spouse or even might hate them. I think even really good marriages are like that.
Therapy isn't marriage, but depending on context, she might be trying to say something similar. And of course some people are more consistent than others. She may not be consistent enough for you. And she may be being a tad too honest with you.
There are very sad truths in therapy. Mine included. My therapist is honest about those truths. It hurt like h*ll, but I think our relationship is stronger now that I have grown to accept them. I can value what we do have, and only occasionally bang my head against the walls of what it isn't. Although I occasionally do.
She might care enough or she might not. I don't know her or your relationship. She may be saying she has trouble attaching to you as a patient, or she may be trying to explain the inequalities inherent in a therapeutic relationship. That need to be inherent in a therapeutic relationship. But it might be worth sitting down with her and asking her what she means by all those things, without preconceptions.
Frankly, I too find what rsk found worrying worrying. Sure, her hormones may be in disarray. Which could be why she didn't come back earlier. Not because she was spending time in maternal bliss with her infant, but because she couldn't watch the days weather without bursting into tears. That was me. I bawled like a baby at no reason in particular. Is it her problem? Sure. Is she getting help for it? I hope so. It can be a physical, medical issue. But the truth is in a long term therapy relationship, a therapist's stuff is going to interfere sometimes. On the other hand she might always be like this. The multiple phone calls worry me a bit too. My therapist *might* call once if he thought he upset me. He would then leave it up to me. If anything, it worries me that she might care too much to be an adequate therapist, not that she cares too little.
In either case, I think a long term relationship deserves a talk. Does *she* think she might have some stuff going on right now physically/emotionally that might be coming into the room right now? Does she mean she's having trouble attaching the way a therapist does attach to clients? Or that she is explaining that therapists can never be as attached as clients? They can't be of course. Not only because they see a bunch of us every week, but because they have to retain objectivity.
If I look back on my therapeutic relationship, I could see plenty of evidence that he doesn't consider me more than a welcome income stream, although he might care about me very much for that reason alone. Or I might find plenty of evidence that he cares plenty, or even too much. Facts are facts. The conclusions we draw from them are colored by our expectations and fears and how we feel about ourselves.
All of which I'm sure you've already considered. Sorry if I'm being obvious. Sigh. I'm feeling a bit stupid this morning. I'm on my way to the vets with a sick pup.
Posted by raisinb on April 7, 2009, at 10:23:42
In reply to Re: my therapist ruined my session, posted by rskontos on April 7, 2009, at 0:34:04
Hey rsk,
Thank you so much for your words of support. I don't know what to think of my therapist's comment. I suppose I'll talk to her today to get more clarification. I just feel so unprepared after all this time to terminate--it comes as a total shock.My therapist has always had moments of tears in our sessions. A couple of times it was because I was yelling at her, a few it's been that we were just having an intense moment, and she felt caught up and/or sad. It always made me feel better, because it was a sign that she *was* intensely connected to me. But maybe you are right--maybe it's not the best thing for a therapist to do. I don't know.
Posted by raisinb on April 7, 2009, at 10:31:45
In reply to Re: my therapist ruined my session, posted by Dinah on April 7, 2009, at 8:00:24
Hi Dinah--
All of the tough truths you articulated make sense, and are things I've known and struggled with since I started feeling intense transference in this relationship. It makes a difference whether she was trying to talk about those, or whether she was saying things have changed for her.My therapist has always cried in sessions. Well, not always, but there have been ten or twelve times over the four years that she has. I asked her once if she did this often with clients. She said, "No!" which means it's only with me.
She has also always, when I leave her a message, called back three or four times to try and catch me. Their practice uses a voice mail paging system (I don't have her real number), so I guess I assumed she was trying to make up for that. But maybe it is, as you said, worrisome.
I don't know what to think. I am just royally confused. After all we've been through, for her to make a comment like that--I suppose I'm in shock.
Posted by rskontos on April 7, 2009, at 11:13:59
In reply to Re: my therapist ruined my session » Dinah, posted by raisinb on April 7, 2009, at 10:31:45
>>>I don't know what to think. I am just royally confused. After all we've been through, for her to make a comment like that--I suppose I'm in shock.>>>>
Which makes her overall behavior puzzling. Why it is puzzling, it is not very therapuetic for you. That is why I am concerned.
Definitely ask her about it. I have found that a direct question to my t is always a great place to get a great session going.
take care my friend and let us know how it goes.
rsk
Posted by raisinb on April 7, 2009, at 11:37:17
In reply to my therapist ruined my session, posted by raisinb on April 6, 2009, at 18:19:06
I am still bewildered and my brain feels fuzzy and I feel drained. She'll call back soon and I'm not sure how to gather together what I have to say.
Posted by Dinah on April 7, 2009, at 11:57:32
In reply to any advice on how to start this conversation?, posted by raisinb on April 7, 2009, at 11:37:17
"It makes a difference whether she was trying to talk about those, or whether she was saying things have changed for her."
How about asking her if things have changed for her? And if she was talking about the inherent limitations of the therapy relationship or something more personal?
Posted by raisinb on April 7, 2009, at 12:38:16
In reply to Re: any advice on how to start this conversation?, posted by Dinah on April 7, 2009, at 11:57:32
She said in one of her messages last night that she had a break between 12-1 today and would try to call me then. She reassured me that she did want to talk, said of course she wanted me to come back, and that she wanted to work through this.
So I've been sitting here for forty minutes twisting with anxiety, and she didn't call.
I am now more crazy bewildered than ever.
Posted by onceupon on April 7, 2009, at 14:07:15
In reply to for goodness' sake, posted by raisinb on April 7, 2009, at 12:38:16
Ouch. This really makes me wonder if she's overwhelmed with her personal situation and not able to adequately respond right now. OTOH, you've mentioned some kind of bizarre things she's said in the past, when she wasn't necessarily bogged down with the recent adjustments in her life.
I do think that it's really difficult to evaluate someone else's therapy, and so I try not to haphazardly tell others what they should or shouldn't do in a therapy relationship. I also think that it's really difficult to evaluate our own therapy relationships sometimes. I know I'm not so objective about my relationship with my therapist (obviously). I don't really know where I'm going with all of this - maybe just thinking that consultation (for both of you) with a third party might be helpful.
Most importantly, I'm really sorry this has been your experience. It sounds like it's been wrenching, to say the least.
Posted by Kenya on April 7, 2009, at 15:41:54
In reply to for goodness' sake, posted by raisinb on April 7, 2009, at 12:38:16
Hi raisinb,
My therapist does this to me ALL the time. Says she'll call and she doesn't. It makes me really upset. Hang in there, breathe, and realize that it's not personal. It sounds like she's having a hard time prioritizing and getting back into her work. As a therapist (the career she chose), IMO it seems to me like she needs to get her sh** together before she ends up losing you and/or other amazing clients that she has. Good luck with your conversation. You deserve for her to fix this with you.
~ Kenya
Posted by yellowbird01 on April 7, 2009, at 17:42:26
In reply to for goodness' sake, posted by raisinb on April 7, 2009, at 12:38:16
I know others have already said this, but I wanted to share it anyway. My very first thought when I read your first post on this thread was "geez, what the heck is going on personally for her T?" My initial thought was that perhaps something in your therapy is hitting a sensitive spot for her and shes reacting out of some need to protect herself.. not from you, but from a topic that is bringing up painful things for her.. and she's reacting to that by pushing you (and therefore the topic) away. I dont know much about what your T has been doing recently but I get that shes been away for a bit... had a baby I think? It could be that it's not actually related to anything happening in the therapy room too.. that it's something happening in her life that she doesnt have a grip on and it's taking over her behavior occasionally. It just sounds like overall she doesnt have a good grip on her own emotions right now, regardless of what is triggering that, and you're one of the victims of her instability right now. I'd be incredibly hurt by what she said too, and even more so when she didnt call back when she said she would. I think she needs to know this. If she isnt able to hear it, then she isnt.. but she needs to hear it anyway. I want to say "thats her problem!" but of course I know it's not that easy and it still hurts terribly. I really wish you the best with this... Please keep us updated.
Posted by Dinah on April 7, 2009, at 18:34:45
In reply to for goodness' sake, posted by raisinb on April 7, 2009, at 12:38:16
Ugh. My therapist does that, and I *hate* it.
For whatever it's worth, and what it is worth might depend on your feelings about my therapist, I asked him specifically about the two statements you quoted your therapist as saying. He said he'd say both of them to me, and they'd both be true.
I told him that although I was pretty sure he'd endorse the statements, I had the sudden urge to drum my heels on the floor. He smiled sympathetically. But didn't back down.
It did hurt, even now.
Posted by raisinb on April 7, 2009, at 20:35:35
In reply to Re: for goodness' sake, posted by Dinah on April 7, 2009, at 18:34:45
Thanks, Dinah :) That was nice of you.
I'm sorry it led to you being hurt. I wish therapists didn't have so much power.
Posted by raisinb on April 7, 2009, at 20:48:47
In reply to Re: for goodness' sake » raisinb, posted by Kenya on April 7, 2009, at 15:41:54
I talked to my therapist today. I told her how upset and confused I was feeling. She said that she was just trying to articulate "in terms of the therapist-client relationship"--i.e., that therapists never care as much as clients do (at least I think that's where she was headed)--here I cut her off, and said, angrily, "I know all that. I've always known that." She said, "Exactly!" And that nothing had changed, it didn't mean she didn't care, wasn't committed, etc. She said she was just trying to say that however much she cared, however committed she was, it wouldn't measure up for me--that "you want me to be a ten, and I can be a seven."
I kept saying I needed to know what had changed, and she kept saying nothing had changed. But I don't believe it.
And that she had seen a lot of growth in me and that she thought we were ready to have that conversation--that it had always been that way, but we'd never really talked about how that felt to me. I said, "why?" have that conversation. And she said, "so I can understand.." and I said, "why?" And she said the same thing and I kept saying "why" and then it didn't go anywhere.
I asked her if she wanted to push me further towards ending, less sessions per week, be less needy, etc., and she said "no! Raisin, I don't think you're needy *now*. You *never* call me--I mean, this is the first time in like a year?" She said this wasn't a punishment, wasn't meant to slap me back.
I asked her if she'd thought more about saying it and she said, yes, and she'd consulted with someone in the last 24 hours. I asked what they said. She said, "they said, sounds like you told her something she wasn't ready to hear." (I did not like this one bit, of course.) But she said "it was a mistake" to say it.
I said, I thought I'd get more of an explanation, but I suppose you've given me all you have. She said she would think about it more before Thursday-"I promise."
I am still feeling confused, suspicious, hurt, and --I don't know. I don't really believe her explanation, and I can't figure out why. Maybe it just wasn't what I needed to hear. I think it was the tone. Her tone was totally professional and intellectual. It had no caring in it.
I know it's hard to judge online, but does it ring true for you guys?
Plus I feel like, um, how do we go on after this? What exactly do I say? What do I talk about? Because after she's said this, I don't really know how to talk to her any more than I'd talk to a stranger on the street.
Posted by antigua3 on April 8, 2009, at 13:04:46
In reply to update--need some feedback, posted by raisinb on April 7, 2009, at 20:48:47
Maybe I missed it, but why did she bring this up in the first place? Just because she thought it needed saying? Or was there some sort of framework or conversation you two were working with? Was she saying, "Now that I'm back, you need to realize that this is just a therapeutic relationship" and you have to accept that?
Either way, I'm confused. I don't know why she felt it was time to bring it up, so soon after her return. You had already had to deal with her absence and then IMO to be slapped in the face with a reminder that you are just a "patient" didn't seem to be in your best interests.
I agree that she's not all with it yet after having the baby, especially if she sought out consultation so quickly on something that has basically happened on her return. (I think consultation is great, but it just doesn't sit quite right with me, here.)
I'd really want to ask "What was your motivation behind telling me this at this particular time?"
Also, perhaps this has triggered some kid-type thing, as if the mother is telling you that you've been pushed out of the nest because she has a new one to care for, and you have to be a "big girl" and handle it. That's clearly from my own experience, but did you have any younger siblings? If so, how did your mother handle it? I may be way off base, but those are the thoughts that come to mind, especially since she said that you may not have been "ready" to hear it.
please take care,
antigua
Posted by raisinb on April 8, 2009, at 14:03:38
In reply to Re: update--need some feedback » raisinb, posted by antigua3 on April 8, 2009, at 13:04:46
Antigua, I asked her several times why she decided to say this to me *now*. Her answer is that she wanted to work through how that felt to me, and she felt we might be ready to have that conversation. I said in the session, "It isn't what I needed to hear two sessions after we came back." She said, "you're absolutely right. I'm sorry." Then she wanted to ask, "how does it feel when I do this to you?" You can imagine I wasn't going to answer that, or any of her questions, by that point.
You're right about what triggered me. I do have younger siblings, and that's absolutely what happened--my mother expected me not only to deal with it, but to help take care of them when I was four and my brother was born.
I honestly don't know whether to go tomorrow or not. Part of me feels like *she* needs something to surprise her, to force her to think about things--like me not showing without canceling.
I don't know why she consulted, and I always was relieved that she frequently consulted on me--but you're right, this time doesn't sit right with me either.
Posted by antigua3 on April 8, 2009, at 15:05:41
In reply to Re: update--need some feedback » antigua3, posted by raisinb on April 8, 2009, at 14:03:38
So work with you have. We can't change what our Ts do or say; we can only change how we react.
Tell her what her comments triggered in you, and point out how insensitive she was. I, too, was taking care of my younger siblings when I was only four, but I can remember being shoved out of the nest and it was not a happy experience. So shame on her (where's Poet when you need a good cyber slap?)
I'd go and talk, just to relieve yourself of the burden.
But that's just me, and I have trouble following my own advice..
antigua
Posted by rskontos on April 8, 2009, at 17:48:38
In reply to Re: update--need some feedback » antigua3, posted by raisinb on April 8, 2009, at 14:03:38
Raisinb,
I think she was just plain wrong about what she said. I would venture to say I think often my t cares more about my therapy than I do. I stress about it and worry but currently he is treating me for zero dinero. So that says alot that he cares.
I think she wasn't in her groove so to speak. I don't she considered all aspects of how her telling you what she did would affect you so that is why she consulted. She just plain read the situation and you wrong.
I also think her motivation for telling stemmed from a need she has maybe nothing about you or how you were ready. I think for some unknown reason, and maybe unknown to her, she did this when maybe she thought the relationship need defining. Because isn't that what that statement is meant to do. Define the relationship. So why now?
She should have realized from your past history and your relating it to her that all you dealt with in the past, your siblings etc would make you feel how you felt then and all those past hurts.
I think if you go you must lay it on the line for her. Explain or refresh her memory that you feel pushed out of the nest again.
I also think it was probably obvious "how does it feel when I do this to you" by your reaction. So why that question.
I am not sure from all you've described that she has gotten her game or groove back.
Sounds like she is winging it.
good luck, keep us posted.
rsk
Posted by raisinb on April 8, 2009, at 17:58:23
In reply to Re: update--need some feedback » raisinb, posted by antigua3 on April 8, 2009, at 15:05:41
Thanks for the feedback, antigua. I will probably go tomorrow, just to see if we can get things back on track.
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