![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 25 to 49 of 69. Go back in thread:
Posted by one woman cine on December 10, 2005, at 23:20:51
In reply to Re: Will my words diminish dreams ,spirits of another? » one woman cine, posted by Gabbix2 on December 10, 2005, at 22:55:25
thanks so much for your words. I'm glad you found that this has resonated with someone else as well.
I think as woman (I'm assuming you are), society and other factors make sure we "take care" of people and don't rock the boat. Although I don't wholeheartedly agree
with Alice Miller, i do the like the "Drama of the gifted Child" because so much stuff is perpetrated on kids in the name of good and nice and goodness knows what else.I also value strong dissent, mainly because it forces an internal dialogue within myself, I'm forced to look at the uncomfortable and sit with it. & hopefully make friends at point. It is hard to have a discussion with someone, and I have tried this with various people in the course of my life, who strike me as kind of aggressive or provoking & then they roll over and play dead and accuse me not playing fair. I have a tendency to call colleagues, friends, and family on their stuff - just as they all call me on mine. For example, in conversations with my parents - they used to be so critical of me - as a person. But the slightest statement or reference from me to them brought them to tears. Not fair fighting. I had a friend who would do and say the most provocative things and when you said something , like "hey your poking me in the eye & it hurts", she'd act like I just killed her twin, like "why are you doing this to me". I'm not qualifying this here, in this situation, with respect to PB - but i understand totally where you are coming from.
& yes, we all have a story to tell. Hopefully no one's voice will be silenced if they choose to tell it.
Posted by gardenergirl on December 10, 2005, at 23:49:23
In reply to Re: Will my words diminish dreams ,spirits of another? » Gabbix2, posted by one woman cine on December 10, 2005, at 23:20:51
I'm reminded of that bit of fun and silliness from, oh, almost two years ago now? I suppose that someone reading about clients putting their T's up in a Babble pageant might wonder what goes on in the therapy of those of who participated. I'm feeling clumsy with words tonight, so this probably is not coming out like it is in my head.
At any rate, at least one of the threads I read about flirting with T's struck me as that same sort of fun and foolishness, which can be a good way to blow off steam or tension related to working hard in therapy. I'm not saying that recent posts are just like that pageant thread. But there's a similar feeling of silliness in the undertones, to me.
What's different to me, though, is that I don't know that anyone might have real and painful fantasies about their T being in a pageant with other T's. But some clients can and do have real and painful fantasies or wishes for love and/or an intimate relationship with their T's. So perhaps that might have an effect on how recent threads have affected some of us.
Just an association. Not sure if it will make sense to anyone else, but I thought I'd throw it out there.
gg
Posted by daisym on December 11, 2005, at 0:55:22
In reply to Anyone remember the Babble pageant?, posted by gardenergirl on December 10, 2005, at 23:49:23
yes -- and I didn't participate in that either. Because...because...it doesn't feel respectful to me. There I said it. Does that make me judgemental? I hope no one takes it that way. I appreciate that people can and do have fun with this stuff. REALLY. I just can't do it. I've never had anyone treat me so gently and so respectfully so I can't "play" with this relationship. I can complain about it, cry about it, share funny moments or talk about his dress, his office or make light of a few other things. I just can't, can't go there with my feelings about him. (Yes, totally, I know, a good girl not wanting to get in trouble but it is more than that.)
And one other thing...
Perhaps the danger isn't that the therapist will take advantage of the client. Perhaps the danger is that the client will be terminated or transferred. Or the therapist will not allow the feelings to be part of the therapy. Again, I'm in complete agreement that a client should be totally honest and bring up what is most on their mind. But how many times have we heard about therapist who just couldn't handle that much honesty? I guess it has been said, but context is so very important.
And I stand by what I said before. The writer should not have to worry about the readers, except with a trigger alert. Readers need to take care of themselves. This is a lesson I'm still learning -- I can hear Fallsfall in my head saying, "turn it off Daisy!" as I watch something that was really upsetting. Hey Falls, I turn it off now -- growth!
Thank you and good night.
Daisy
Posted by Gabbix2 on December 11, 2005, at 1:06:44
In reply to Anyone remember the Babble pageant?, posted by gardenergirl on December 10, 2005, at 23:49:23
Well Partly KK could get away with just about anything, the pageant to me was just so outrageous and cartoonish that it didn't give me the same feelings.. However from what I've seen now, after two more years (at the time I had no idea the depth of the client therapist relationship) I might feel differently if I saw it again, I don't know.
And as I recall, when KK mentioned anything that was more intimate and more real about her fantasies, she didn't get off that easily either.That post needed a trigger I miss KarenKay *sniff*
kidding about the trigger.
Posted by Voce on December 11, 2005, at 1:11:48
In reply to Re: Anyone remember the Babble pageant? » gardenergirl, posted by daisym on December 11, 2005, at 0:55:22
<I just can't do it. I've never had anyone treat me so gently and so respectfully so I can't "play" with this relationship. I can complain about it, cry about it, share funny moments or talk about his dress, his office or make light of a few other things. I just can't, can't go there with my feelings about him. (Yes, totally, I know, a good girl not wanting to get in trouble but it is more than that.)>
Thanks Daisy, for verbalizing what I couldn't. In my experience (and I'm guessing yours as well), my T respected my sexuality so much that to play like that in the context of our relationship would have been unthinkable. I wanted him desperately, yes, but when we worked through that desire, I found that I didn't want a sexual relationship with him; I wanted a perfect father.
If he had "egged me on" so to speak, I think it would have been glossing over the REAL issue. I can't judge Ally's T in this case because we don't know the CONTEXT, but I know that it wouldn't have worked for me.
I think also that it's impossible for a person to joke about an issue that is the most painful one for them. My feelings for him were painful. Still are. I was glad he only dealt in reality about it. To joke would have hurt me so much.
Posted by Voce on December 11, 2005, at 1:16:39
In reply to Re: Will my words diminish dreams ,spirits of another? » Voce, posted by allisonross on December 10, 2005, at 12:15:07
<He said that "when kids come in about abuse issues, but don't talk about it, they are STILL talking about it.">
Yup, that's a very true statement. When I went to therapy, even if I wasn't talking *about* something, it still showed in my tone of voice, eye contact (or lack therof) and posture.
<I appreciate the thought/concern that I may be...being hurt. To tell the truth, that has happened, but it is much too intricate and detailed to go into now.>
I echo what someone said about wanting to get to know you better. We know the facts about the divorce, but how are you doing now? And just because you love your T doesn't mean he's perfect, and we all understand that. I have come to this board and shared all the ugly stuff about my relationship with my T, as well as the good stuff. And I still love him. If you want to share stuff about your T that has hurt you, I would encourage you to do so. There are some amazing people on this board who can offer well thought-out persepectives. It always helps me so much to bounce things off other posters.
Posted by allisonross on December 11, 2005, at 6:55:22
In reply to Re: To: (((OnewomanCine )))/Your question.., posted by one woman cine on December 10, 2005, at 21:41:14
> No PB didn't get the reply at all. How do feel about what I wrote, do you agree/disagree?
>
> I guess I wanted to ask, how does it feel to joke around in the manner you do?It feels wonderful and makes me happy. I enjoy making others laugh.
I do too, with close friends - so it's not a criticism. But I guess, I'm sensing more than just joking, maybe I'm reading into this - but it seems to me to be way in which to gain control or power, that seems to be a central theme in the jokes - that's present - maybe not.
I don't understand what you mean. I don't understand how joking can be a power thing. My humor is gentle and silly and fun. It certainly isn't a power thing. As you may have read, most comedians become (professional) comedians, as a way of staying out of pain.
maybe it's just your humor.
Yes it is. It is just MY humor.
I mean what's behind the jokes, what's really going on with you?
I don;t know what you mean by that. What's going on with me? Right now, I am just doing the best I can with coping with divorce. That is the only issue in my life.
I was BORN with this sense of humor. I am grateful for it; it has been my saving grace.
Ally
Posted by allisonross on December 11, 2005, at 7:14:11
In reply to Re: Will my words diminish dreams ,spirits of another? » one woman cine, posted by Gabbix2 on December 10, 2005, at 22:55:25
> > "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all",
I wanted to respond; hope you don't mind, because I am the one that said that. Where I was coming from, wasn't what you are talking about (being obedient, submitting, etc., etc.)
I've been expressing my opinions ALL of my life (born standin up and talking back)..I'm the poster-child for saying what I think.
As a child, I fought back constantly agains the abuse. I asked my sister "why was I the scapegoat?" She said: "Because you would never shut up!"
I meant basically, as adults we can choose to say nothing if the "stuff" has nothing to do with us, or we will hurt another human being. I don't know if I am expressing this well, but I am trying.
to me is a phrase oft told to me by my parents to make sure I was obedient, well-behaved, and always agreeable. Perfect, except it was making me submit to things that were harmful to me as a person. It took away the power of my voice & in my opinion, to all children.
>
> This really hit home with me.
> The phrase if you can't say "anything nice"
> is meaningless to me.
> What's nice? Nice is subjective.
> Women still wouldn't have the vote if we'd been NICE
>
> Kindness, and goodness come in many forms.
> I've learned other viewpoints, and ways of thinking that are precious because someone took the time to offer me an alternate way of looking at things, rather than just nodding their head and saying nothing.I always want to hear what people have to say; I value authenticity.
> To me that is a true kindness.
>
> I would much rather know clearly how someone feels if they are bothered by something I've said rather than have to read between the lines, of their response or sense that something is "off"I cannot bear for anyone to be the slightest bit angry, upset at me. I know this comes from childhood, so I always want to clear the air; talk about it, resolve it, and move on.
>
> Two of my favourite babblers are people I had strong disagreement with. We talked it through, rather than submitting to a tepid congeniality in order to be 'nice'No one would ever say I am "tepid"...LOL...they would say I am passionate.
> And now I have two very close e-friends because of that exchange.
>
> I too have been abused, badly, as a child, and for a long time.I am sorry for that. I had the same experience.
> I don't see the connection between that, and people not being permitted to say how something I say makes them feel - that I can't hear it because it's too painful for me to be criticized as I've been abused.
It's only natural to not want to hear criticism. I lived with it as a child and then in 31 years of marriage. I've worked excruciatingly long and hard to get the toxic people out of my life.
None of my friends ever...criticize me. THey allow me....to be me. I feel "heard" with them, at that is what we all need..to be heard, and validated.
Because of abuse I (lots of abused people) are hypersensitive to criticism; it is only natural for that to happen.
I believe if we use "I" messages. --I felt like this....when you said that.... To me that's a method of gaining control, I would also feel as if I was maintaining my position as a victim.
In my whole life, I never thought of myself as a victim; I call myself an overcomer and wounded-healer.
>
> That's not who I am, the person I am is the person I have become because of this.
> The world is not going to stop for me if I announce my past. If I say that I have a need to express myself because of it, than I would not dare assume that the same need is not for everyone, That would infer that they themselves couldn't know pain, like mine.
>
> Everyone has a story, most of us have a story that would break your heart, and sometimes those most quiet are the ones in excruciating pain.
>
> ****So, just like you have to express yourself, I also must do this.
>
> That says it all really, I don't even know why I bothered with the rest.I hope if there is any animosity between us (that's the hypersensitivity talking here, LOL), that we will resolve it, and become friends. I would like that.
Smiles, Ally
>
>
Posted by allisonross on December 11, 2005, at 7:40:28
In reply to Re: Will my words diminish dreams ,spirits of another? » Gabbix2, posted by one woman cine on December 10, 2005, at 23:20:51
Just a little aside; perhaps (if you wish), this will give you a little insight as to who I am (crazy person, LOL)
I've performed 3 acts of "restorative justice"---This is what you did...this is how it made me feel. My t gave me those words---they were the best gift I ever received. So empowering to someone abused for a lifetime
1. GOt a divorce...this was saying; I refuse to be abused any longer. Took me a loooong time but I got there.
2. I flew to another state alone, and confronted someone who did something horrific to me.
3. When my church kicked me out, I stood up in frnt of the whole congregation (they did this to me on my birthday; put my name up on a screen, followed by the words: Conduct Unbecoming A child of God)
I said: Wow, I didn't think this many people would show up to help me celebrate my birthday." They were grim as a heart attack, I was smiling and joking. I then read my little speech.
I then waited 2 years and wrote to every person in that church (more restorative justice); cost me 60 dollars in postage.
I then wrote to the pastor, requesting compensation for what I had to spend in therapy. My intention was to share the compensation with the 2 women, who because of his "counseling" skills, wanted to commit suicide...
.after a year I received a check; just a mere pathetic token, but I believe in standing up for my principles, no matter how scary.
Guess there is a #4:
My t did something that upset me, and I confronted him on it. He said: "You felt disrespected, etc.." I said yes, and explained it.
So, thatz me, in a nut (really..a nut!) shell!
Smiles, Ally
Posted by Dinah on December 11, 2005, at 9:02:24
In reply to Re: (((((((((HappyFlower)))))))))))))))))))))))))), posted by allisonross on December 10, 2005, at 12:17:53
> Hey, there! Perhaps I will decide to stay, to just see how many other tornadoes I can cause!
>
> As I tell people in my office, I have so little time, and so many more people to aggravate!
>
> Just jokin' everyone, just jokin here!!
>I understand that was a joke. But I wonder why you chose to make it. Since it's other people's feelings that you're talking about, and they're standing right here, so to speak.
> I meant basically, as adults we can choose to say nothing if the "stuff" has nothing to do with us, or we will hurt another human being. I don't know if I am expressing this well, but I am trying.
But on the other hand, people are saying this "stuff" *does* have something to do with them. And that it *is* hurting them. As adults, we can also choose to respect and validate *their* feelings.
I'm not sure that we can get anywhere without expressing understanding of the other person(s) feelings, and regret for any pain we may be inadvertantly causing others. And I mean that for everyone.
I remember once that I was told something I wrote needed a trigger warning. And while I didn't understand it myself, I appreciated that it was important to someone else. So, perhaps with a bit of "huh?" I tried to start putting triggers on it. Since it doesn't viscerally affect me, I might slip up from time to time, but with a reminder I will be more than willing to put a trigger on those posts.
Nobody's trying to hurt you. If anything, I think the people who brought this up are doing what you call "restorative justice". Didn't you say that your therapist did something, and you told him how you felt? How is that different than what anyone on this thread did? I thought pretty much everyone bent over backwards to explain that they were expressing how *they* felt rather than to criticize.
I understand that you feel criticized, and I hope my post didn't add to that feeling. I'm hoping we can all come to a mutual understanding and appreciation of each other.
Posted by Pfinstegg on December 11, 2005, at 9:15:11
In reply to Re: Restorative Justice/Never been nice or good!, posted by allisonross on December 11, 2005, at 7:40:28
There is such a lot of feeling, intelligence and thoughtfulness in this thread. I'm not going to try to cover all of it, (I couldn't), but someone mentioned the threads about two years ago- I think it was called the "Perfect Therapists Club" I was one of the people who contributed to that. We all talked a lot about our therapists' looks, their clothing, what they said etc. I was newly in therapy at the time, and had a very intense loving transference towards him. It was coupled with complete respect for both him, and our therapeutic relationship. That part- the really important part- didn't get mentioned too much, I guess. I think I was so thrilled and bowled over by the possibilities for healing and growth in this wonderful new relationship that it felt safer and less overwhelming to have fun about things like argyle socks. I knew he would never take advantage of me, or hurt me. I thought the whole thread was a way of having fun about the little things- thus preserving in our hearts the essential wonder of the therapeutic relationship.
Apparently, some of the threads came across as belittling that relationship, or as indicating that boundary violations might occur. These were not on my mind, at all, and would not be possible with my analyst. I think I was trying to find a light-hearted way to say how wonderful it was.
With your post, Ally, I sensed some of the same things- your delight in the relationship- and it's healing possibilities. I will admit that i worried a little that the relationship was becoming sexualized (that's OK and normal), but was not being looked at carefully so that the two of you could work it through. That the enactment and sexualizing were becoming ends in themselves, rather than way stations towards growth and a full independent life for you. i don't know if this is true, of course- it's just what crossed my mind occasionally.
As others have said, it's extremely painful to fall in love with one's therapist, and then have to "work it through", with all the loss that that implies. You seem to want to leave the board rather than hear that that is what other posters think will lead to true healing for you. It would be a shame to leave for that reason. I think you will find that others (me!) will delight in hearing about your therapeutic relationship, as long as they also hear about your awareness of the necessity of maintaining good boundaries, You have hinted that your therapist may not have always maintained good boundaries, but have indicated that it's not a topic you want to talk about here. Maybe it would really help if you did.
Posted by allisonross on December 11, 2005, at 9:37:30
In reply to what we have said about our therapists..., posted by Pfinstegg on December 11, 2005, at 9:15:11
> There is such a lot of feeling, intelligence and thoughtfulness in this thread.
Thankyou, sweetie! You have a lovely way with words...a rare thing.
I'm not going to try to cover all of it, (I couldn't), but someone mentioned the threads about two years ago- I think it was called the "Perfect Therapists Club" I was one of the people who contributed to that. We all talked a lot about our therapists' looks, their clothing, what they said etc.
That must have been fun!
I was newly in therapy at the time, and had a very intense loving transference towards him. It was coupled with complete respect for both him, and our therapeutic relationship. That part- the really important part- didn't get mentioned too much, I guess. I think I was so thrilled and bowled over by the possibilities for healing and growth in this wonderful new relationship that it felt safer and less overwhelming to have fun about things like argyle socks. I knew he would never take advantage of me, or hurt me. I thought the whole thread was a way of having fun about the little things- thus preserving in our hearts the essential wonder of the therapeutic relationship.
Beautifully said.
>
> Apparently, some of the threads came across as belittling that relationship,That confused me. I said nothing belittling. I mentioned a question my t asked me, and said my answer. Then said I was (hate repeating, sorry) going to get a green light bulb.
or as indicating that boundary violations might occur. These were not on my mind, at all, and would not be possible with my analyst. I think I was trying to find a light-hearted way to say how wonderful it was.
>
> With your post, Ally, I sensed some of the same things- your delight in the relationship- and it's healing possibilities. I will admit that i worried a little that the relationship was becoming sexualized (that's OK and normal), but was not being looked at carefully so that the two of you could work it through.Oh, I have been looking at it for a very long time.
That the enactment and sexualizing were becoming ends in themselves, rather than way stations towards growth and a full independent life for you.
I've always dealt with my own stuff by myself, and for the first time in my life; he came along at the precise moment I needed, and journeyed with me on the church debacle. As he said: "You did all of the work, I was journeying with you."
i don't know if this is true, of course- it's just what crossed my mind occasionally.
>
> As others have said, it's extremely painful to fall in love with one's therapist,Extremely.
and then have to "work it through", with all the loss that that implies. You seem to want to leave the board rather than hear that that is what other posters think will lead to true healing for you.
I don't really want to leave the board, I just want to keep myself safe from any more criticism. It would be like sticking your hand on a hot stove over and over, hoping it wouldn't hurt.
It would be a shame to leave for that reason. I think you will find that others (me!) will delight in hearing about your therapeutic relationship, as long as they also hear about your awareness of the necessity of maintaining good boundaries,
Oh, I am aware of that.
You have hinted that your therapist may not have always maintained good boundaries, but have indicated that it's not a topic you want to talk about here. Maybe it would really help if you did.
I will think about it. As I said I understand what is going on and that it is hurtful to me (I've written tons of poems about that pain). The bottom line is that I am not ready to leave. I know no one can help me with this.
Just as no one could help me in my decision to get a divorce. I had to do it myself.
Thank you again, for your sweetness, kindness and lovely words!
Smiling, Alice
Posted by allisonross on December 11, 2005, at 9:49:12
In reply to Allisonross, posted by Dinah on December 11, 2005, at 9:02:24
> > Hey, there! Perhaps I will decide to stay, to just see how many other tornadoes I can cause!
> >
> > As I tell people in my office, I have so little time, and so many more people to aggravate!
> >
> > Just jokin' everyone, just jokin here!!
> >
>
> I understand that was a joke. But I wonder why you chose to make it.See, this is more criticism...I chose to make it because I thought it was amusing, and OBVIOUSLY a joke.
Since it's other people's feelings that you're talking about, and they're standing right here, so to speak.
Other person's feelings? About what?
>
> > I meant basically, as adults we can choose to say nothing if the "stuff" has nothing to do with us, or we will hurt another human being. I don't know if I am expressing this well, but I am trying.
>
> But on the other hand, people are saying this "stuff" *does* have something to do with them. And that it *is* hurting them. As adults, we can also choose to respect and validate *their* feelings.
>
> I'm not sure that we can get anywhere without expressing understanding of the other person(s) feelings, and regret for any pain we may be inadvertantly causing others. And I mean that for everyone.
>
> I remember once that I was told something I wrote needed a trigger warning. And while I didn't understand it myself, I appreciated that it was important to someone else. So, perhaps with a bit of "huh?" I tried to start putting triggers on it. Since it doesn't viscerally affect me, I might slip up from time to time, but with a reminder I will be more than willing to put a trigger on those posts.
>
> Nobody's trying to hurt you. If anything, I think the people who brought this up are doing what you call "restorative justice". Didn't you say that your therapist did something, and you told him how you felt? How is that different than what anyone on this thread did? I thought pretty much everyone bent over backwardsWith the exception of a few, they did.
to explain that they were expressing how *they* felt rather than to criticize.
We all construct our own versions of reality, my reality was that I felt criticized, and so I was....we cannot choose our feelings, but we can choose how we behave, because of them. In expressing how we feel, we can unintentionally hurt someone.
I am very aware of words and what they can do. I counsel women who have been verbally abused.
I find that in life, most people don't know how to express criticism with tact.
>
> I understand that you feel criticized, and I hope my post didn't add to that feeling.It did, but I can let it go. I don't hold grudges. I like to be a peacemaker.
I'm hoping we can all come to a mutual understanding and appreciation of each other.
I hope so too...as long as we keep talking, this is possible.
Sincerely, Ally
Posted by Pfinstegg on December 11, 2005, at 10:08:11
In reply to Re: what we have said about our therapists... » Pfinstegg, posted by allisonross on December 11, 2005, at 9:37:30
Thanks so much for your response- you are wonderful- spirited and courageous, and very pretty (I saw your lovely photo).
To clear up one small point: I wasn't saying that you reacted negatively to those two-year old posts. It wasn't you at all; just, on this thread, some of the longer-term posters brought up that it had seemed disrespectful at the time. I was completely unaware of that, and it did make me think about how different people's legitimate reactions can be.
At the end of your post, so much of a sense of aloneness comes through. Everything you have done to make your life better has taken so much courage; but you are not alone. The most important person you have right now is your therapist; he will never abandon you. As therapy progresses, you can slowly and carefully deal with all the pain and losses you have endured (none of them should ever have happened, but, sadly, they did). He is going to be right with you as you do this. Gradually, you will begin replicating the relationship you have with him with others who are also healthy and safe. But you will always have him, too.
Just a thought- but you are so pretty and indeed do look about 39- do you have the feeling that your looks and sexiness are the only things which could possibly make a therapist interested in you? That all the loss and pain- if it's what you begin to talk about more- will be a turn-off for him?
Posted by Dinah on December 11, 2005, at 10:11:59
In reply to Re: Allisonross » Dinah, posted by allisonross on December 11, 2005, at 9:49:12
> See, this is more criticism...I chose to make it because I thought it was amusing, and OBVIOUSLY a joke.
I apologize. I should have said that when I read that joke I felt hurt.
Posted by allisonross on December 11, 2005, at 10:16:39
In reply to Re: Allisonross, posted by Dinah on December 11, 2005, at 10:11:59
> > See, this is more criticism...I chose to make it because I thought it was amusing, and OBVIOUSLY a joke.
>
> I apologize. I should have said that when I read that joke I felt hurt.I am sorry you felt that way. I don't understand why you felt hurt, can you explain it?
Did you believe I really meant I wanted to aggravate people on purpose?
Ally
Posted by daisym on December 11, 2005, at 11:09:36
In reply to Re: what we have said about our therapists... » allisonross, posted by Pfinstegg on December 11, 2005, at 10:08:11
>>>>To clear up one small point: I wasn't saying that you reacted negatively to those two-year old posts. It wasn't you at all; just, on this thread, some of the longer-term posters brought up that it had seemed disrespectful at the time. I was completely unaware of that, and it did make me think about how different people's legitimate reactions can be.
<<<<Seems like we are all trying to clear up small points... I just want to make sure that you (and anyone else who is reading) understands that *I* wasn't offended by some of the lighter threads we've had here -- I particpate in lots of them. But things like the pageant had more physical overtones for me and so I chose not to participate and pretty much not read that thread. But I also know that my reaction was not the general reaction - I respect and correspond all the time with the posters who were writing. So, I took care of myself. Thank you very much for saying that different responses are still 'legitimate' responses. They aren't intended as criticism, they are just different.
I run into the same situations IRL too. I often feel like such a prude...*sigh*
Posted by Dinah on December 11, 2005, at 11:52:43
In reply to Re: Allisonross » Dinah, posted by allisonross on December 11, 2005, at 10:16:39
Never mind. I find that I was feeling hurt on behalf of others, none of whom have expressed hurt at the joke. So I'll just let it drop.
I was genuinely interested in the reasons behind the joke. But I think you've explained it adequately.
I admittedly often do not understand why it's ok to say things as a joke that couldn't be said not as a joke. But I don't get Don Rickles' humor either. And lots of people do.
If no one else was hurt, I'd just as soon drop it.
Posted by Dinah on December 11, 2005, at 12:01:45
In reply to Re: Allisonross » allisonross, posted by Dinah on December 11, 2005, at 11:52:43
Hmmm... I wasn't comparing Don Rickles to you.
I was using him as an example of a deficit in my understanding of humor.
Posted by Tamar on December 11, 2005, at 14:24:28
In reply to Re: OK, here's my problem... » Tamar, posted by fallsfall on December 10, 2005, at 18:15:43
Hi Falls,
> But now that we are in agreement, where does that leave an individual patient? I would love to say that all therapists are trustworthy (and I do believe that almost all of them are). I would love to say that therapists will never take advantage of the trust that patients put in them. But I know that this isn't true all of the time. So how do we protect ourselves while being completely vulnerable and honest? This is the dilemma.
I know what you mean. In a way it’s the same question all women might ask themselves about all men. We know that most men are trustworthy, but how do we protect ourselves from the few who aren’t? How do we know which men are dangerous before it’s too late?
I suspect there are many different answers to this question. Some people might say that having a positive attitude and learning self defence could help. Others might argue that there is nothing we can do (and therefore we trust none of them, or we trust all of them and hope things will be OK).
I imagine that the most important factor is education. If women know what the risks are, I think they are likely to be safer. I suspect that many women have no idea before they start therapy that a relationship with the therapist is likely to be very damaging. (Just like I had no idea before I was raped that most women who are raped know their attackers.)
> Ally's therapist has said that they can have whatever feelings they have, and that it is safe as long as they don't act on them. It is the therapist's job to make sure that neither acts on those feelings. But it *IS* the patient's job to watch out for herself, as well.
I still disagree with your last sentence. It seems as if you’re saying the client has to take some responsibility for her safety in therapy, and I don’t think she should. I suppose I might say that a prudent client might want to watch out for herself. But she shouldn’t have to.
> I guess that what I hope that Babble can do is to give patients enough perspective to be able to observe what is going on in therapy and know what the warning signs are. And to give them encouragement to protect themselves if the therapist is *NOT* doing his job - i.e. if the therapist starts acting instead of talking. But, that said, they can hurt us without touching us, can't they?
Yes… education. And I agree: they can hurt us without touching us.
> Please understand that I tell my therapist everything (well, even for me that isn't true). This is very complicated. I guess that I think that each of us need to be our own last defense. And the trick of therapy is to push that and trust a little more and narrow that last defense to the minimum that it can be. But I don't think you can ever let that last defense go. Some people have mile wide defenses, some have inch wide defenses. I guess it is important to figure out where you are on that spectrum, and try to narrow your defenses a little more.
Interesting way of putting it. I feel as if I’d like to lose all my defences in therapy. Maybe because that’s what my issues are about. I was amazed at how safe I felt with my therapist; I knew with what felt like 100% confidence that he would never sexually exploit me. But I was unable to trust him with my love.
> So, Tamar, you bring up such an interesting point. How CAN we protect ourselves from unscrupulous therapists, and still be honest in therapy? I don't know the answer.I think you answered already. And babble really can help with that: helping women find perspective on their own therapies. But sometimes we’re still faced with the problem that our subconscious wants something that we know could be harmful…
Tamar
Posted by Gabbix2 on December 11, 2005, at 14:25:21
In reply to Re: Will my words diminish dreams ,spirits of another? » Gabbix2, posted by allisonross on December 11, 2005, at 7:14:11
>
> It's only natural to not want to hear criticism. I lived with it as a child and then in 31 years of marriage. I've worked excruciatingly long and hard to get the toxic people out of my life.
>
> None of my friends ever...criticize me. THey allow me....to be me. I feel "heard" with them, at that is what we all need..to be heard, and validated.
>
> Because of abuse I (lots of abused people) are hypersensitive to criticism; it is only natural for that to happen.
>
>
Okay, I'm going to try once again to get my point across and then I admit defeat.Yes, I am sensitive to criticism, in my personal life, unwarranted criticism about how I act, what I should be d oing etc.
However, If I speak out about something in public and when people tell me how I feel about it, I say "I can't hear it!" that's a different bailliwick.
I'm going to use the example of religion and priests here, and I hope no one feels offended that I'm making that comparison, it's the only one I can think of though.
If I were on a board with many religious folks, and decided I was going to write about what I want to do with my pastor, or priest, who would also have boundaries, call myself saucy for doing it, (acknowledging that I'm pushing the envelope) How could I not expect others to tell me how they feel about it?
How could I ask that they not tell me, that well "I gotta be me, and this is how I do it and now y'all made me feel bad and I shouldn't have to feel bad because I've suffered"
I have no regard for priests, (IRL) but you know, I do know that other people do have deep feelings about them, and knowing that I would respect it, even though I may not understand.
And no one is asking that you not say how you feel, what they are doing is having a conversation, and asking for a compromise.
A free spirit can't have it both ways.
No free spirit I know expects complete aprobation, If you know that you're pushing the boundaries, you've got to expect that someone is going to tell you how they feel about it.
It goes both ways..
On a board like this often it isn't about "Their stuff and my stuff" it's about "our stuff" and how can we work out compromise.
Posted by Tamar on December 11, 2005, at 14:42:31
In reply to Re: OK, here's my problem...((Tamar)))) » Tamar, posted by allisonross on December 10, 2005, at 21:10:12
> > Aside from all that, I don’t seem to recall a single person asking Ally *why* she enjoys joking sexually about her therapist, or whether she believes it is helpful to flirt in therapy.
>
> Thankyou, sweetie!
> The answer is simple: With my therapist (and in life) I enjoy teasing and joking; am a free spirit in a buttoned down, locked down world, I know. My teasing is always subtle and gentle--never crude or offensive.Thanks for the answer, Ally. I suppose it leads me to ask further questions… (you don’t have to answer if you don’t want to!)
I had the opposite experience from you. I tease and flirt with people IRL, just as you say you do, but in therapy I tried very hard never to be flirtatious. It was partly a fear of rejection and partly a fear that he’d think I was a ‘bad girl’ and partly that I felt (for whatever reason) that flirting in therapy would disempower me a little.
So I enjoy sexual joking about therapists here at Babble because I suppressed my inclinations to flirt in therapy.
But for you I think it’s different. You do flirt in therapy, you say. So maybe you’re experiencing a different kind of relief when you joke about him here.
Sometimes I wonder – and of course I may be totally off the mark – if perhaps you’re a little annoyed at your therapist for being able to resist you. If you are, I think that’s pretty normal. I only ask because you haven’t said much about being angry at anything… You’ve shared events from your life that must have been extremely difficult to deal with and I imagine you must have been angry, though you didn’t say. And now your love and desire for your therapist is difficult to deal with, and perhaps that makes you angry. I know there were times when I was furious at my therapist for not wanting to tear off my clothes (not that I ever told him I wanted him to do any such thing…).
But joking about him might be a way of ‘pretending’ you’re not angry.
Please feel free to ignore me if you think I’m talking nonsense.
Tamar
Posted by allisonross on December 11, 2005, at 15:18:49
In reply to more about therapists » allisonross, posted by Tamar on December 11, 2005, at 14:42:31
> > > Aside from all that, I don’t seem to recall a single person asking Ally *why* she enjoys joking sexually about her therapist, or whether she believes it is helpful to flirt in therapy.
> >
> > Thankyou, sweetie!> > The answer is simple: With my therapist (and in life) I enjoy teasing and joking; am a free spirit in a buttoned down, locked down world, I know. My teasing is always subtle and gentle--never crude or offensive.
>
> Thanks for the answer, Ally. I suppose it leads me to ask further questions… (you don’t have to answer if you don’t want to!)Ask away!
>
> I had the opposite experience from you. I tease and flirt with people IRL,I tease and flirt with just about everybody!
just as you say you do, but in therapy I tried very hard never to be flirtatious.
I couldn't help myself. As I call "her" my evil twin; I told my t that it was Francesca (my evil twin) that made me so naughty.
It was partly a fear of rejection and partly a fear that he’d think I was a ‘bad girl’ and partly that I felt (for whatever reason) that flirting in therapy would disempower me a little.
>
> So I enjoy sexual joking about therapists here at Babble because I suppressed my inclinations to flirt in therapy.
>
> But for you I think it’s different. You do flirt in therapy, you say. So maybe you’re experiencing a different kind of relief when you joke about him here.I always feel better when I can joke. Life can be so tragic, painful and serious. I NEED to joke, to live.
>
> Sometimes I wonder – and of course I may be totally off the mark – if perhaps you’re a little annoyed at your therapist for being able to resist you.LOL---well, he is struggling with it (his words).
If you are, I think that’s pretty normal. I only ask because you haven’t said much about being angry at anything…
I did mention in another post (don't know to who, I am worn out now), that he had hurt me and I have been angry, and written poetry about it, and shared it also, with my friends.
You’ve shared events from your life that must have been extremely difficult to deal with and I imagine you must have been angry, though you didn’t say. And now your love and desire for your therapist is difficult to deal with, and perhaps that makes you angry.
Of course it does. Unfortunately, it just isn't my stuff...if it were, I would just tell myself to deal with it. To play with another's emotions is cruelty, and he does the push-me-pull me thing; come here, go away; I must be professional, etc.....He even told me:
"I have failed you"
I know there were times when I was furious at my therapist for not wanting to tear off my clothes (not that I ever told him I wanted him to do any such thing…).
I hear ya! Unrequited love is excruciating, because there is not a thing you can do about it. My t told me about an unrequited love he had, and said he grew to "hate her." He knows how I feel. I have told him verbally, and in poetry. There isn't a shadow of a doubt.
He also said: "You want me....to want you." Didn't have the guts to say: "Do you?" Point is, I know he does.
Going a tiny bit further...last week I said I had some questions I was curious about, and wanted to ask him, but it was none of my business, so I wouldn't ask them (ironic how I keep the boundaries, and he doesn't always..
His response: "Are those questions that might push me over the precipice?'!!!!!
This evening I intend to ask him the precipice question: Do you feel you are on a precipice? What is that like for you?...you feel that WORDS could push you over, etc....scary, but I want to know, since HE brought it up.
h>
> But joking about him might be a way of ‘pretending’ you’re not angry.Oh, I am angry. When he does something I don't like, or says something, etc....I let him know it.he will say: "Is this going to be painful?" LOL---because there was an incident where I let him have it (in a nice way, LOL)
Oh, trust me I say what I think. My joking is a part of me, like my skin and hair!
>
> Please feel free to ignore me if you think I’m talking nonsense.You are not, and I am grateful that you shared your feelings/story about YOUR t
Love talking to you.
Hugs, Ally>
> Tamar
>
>
>
Posted by gardenergirl on December 11, 2005, at 16:08:21
In reply to Re: Anyone remember the Babble pageant?, posted by Gabbix2 on December 11, 2005, at 1:06:44
> Well Partly KK could get away with just about anything, the pageant to me was just so outrageous and cartoonish that it didn't give me the same feelings..
True, she was pretty outrageous, and her hijinks are what drew me in to Babble.
> And as I recall, when KK mentioned anything that was more intimate and more real about her fantasies, she didn't get off that easily either.
Yep, that's right.
>
> That post needed a trigger I miss KarenKay *sniff*
> kidding about the trigger.:)
gg
Posted by Tamar on December 11, 2005, at 16:15:10
In reply to Re: more about therapistsTRIGGER/talk of t » Tamar, posted by allisonross on December 11, 2005, at 15:18:49
> I couldn't help myself. As I call "her" my evil twin; I told my t that it was Francesca (my evil twin) that made me so naughty.
I was quite surprised that I could restrain myself! I never have before… Why do you call your ‘evil twin’ Francesca?
> I always feel better when I can joke. Life can be so tragic, painful and serious. I NEED to joke, to live.
So perhaps joking about your therapist brings you some relief from the seriousness and pain of doing therapy with a man who won’t put out… Perhaps it’s a coping strategy. Could it be something more?
So many other people here have said they feel the therapeutic relationship is too serious or sacred to joke about; the very idea makes them uncomfortable. Why do you think it’s different for us? Is it just a difference in personality? Or is there something more to it?
> > Sometimes I wonder – and of course I may be totally off the mark – if perhaps you’re a little annoyed at your therapist for being able to resist you.
>
> LOL---well, he is struggling with it (his words).I wish my therapist had told me something like that. I sometimes imagined that the safety was only real if it was a struggle for him. If he’d been safe to me only because he was gay or I was unattractive or something like that, it wouldn’t have meant as much to me. The idea that he could be sexually interested in me and still be able to keep control of himself was very important to me. (I wish I’d talked about it with him.)
> I did mention in another post (don't know to who, I am worn out now), that he had hurt me and I have been angry, and written poetry about it, and shared it also, with my friends.
Ah. I’m not sure if I saw that one. I go through phases when I read every post and other phases when I hardly read at all… it depends what else is going on.
> Of course it does. Unfortunately, it just isn't my stuff...if it were, I would just tell myself to deal with it. To play with another's emotions is cruelty, and he does the push-me-pull me thing; come here, go away; I must be professional, etc.....
Well, even if you just tell yourself to deal with it, it doesn’t mean you can just deal with it! Sometimes it’s harder than that.> I hear ya! Unrequited love is excruciating, because there is not a thing you can do about it. My t told me about an unrequited love he had, and said he grew to "hate her." He knows how I feel. I have told him verbally, and in poetry. There isn't a shadow of a doubt.
Do you think you could come to hate him? Does *he* think you could come to hate him? If he’s afraid of that possibility it might explain some of his push-pull behaviour.
> He also said: "You want me....to want you." Didn't have the guts to say: "Do you?" Point is, I know he does.
I know that it’s extremely important to me to be wanted. Maybe you too? I have to say, I don’t mind the idea that I can’t be together with my therapist, but the idea that he might not want me is much worse.
> This evening I intend to ask him the precipice question: Do you feel you are on a precipice? What is that like for you?...you feel that WORDS could push you over, etc....scary, but I want to know, since HE brought it up.
I hope you do ask him, because I think he needs to explain it!
> Oh, I am angry. When he does something I don't like, or says something, etc....I let him know it.he will say: "Is this going to be painful?" LOL---because there was an incident where I let him have it (in a nice way, LOL)
I think I might be angry in your situation. I can imagine you might be angry that he’s not prepared to give you more than flirtatious words, however good those words might feel at the time.
I’m sure you’ve heard the theory that when people have experienced many abusive relationships they sometimes try to repeat those relationships in therapy. So it’s especially important that he can control himself.
I wonder if joking about him here feels safer to you than joking with him in therapy. I wonder if you’re a little afraid that he really might go too far. What do you think?
Tamar
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