![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 25 of 31. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Tamar on June 18, 2005, at 12:22:17
I think you said something about being concerned about the weekend. Are you doing all right? We're thinking of you.
Tamar
Posted by happyflower on June 18, 2005, at 13:16:55
In reply to Daisy, how are you today?, posted by Tamar on June 18, 2005, at 12:22:17
I hope you are doing fine! ;)
Posted by fallsfall on June 18, 2005, at 13:52:58
In reply to Re: Daisy, how are you today?, posted by happyflower on June 18, 2005, at 13:16:55
I hope that you are finding pleasant things to keep you busy.
Please take care of yourself, or I'll have to come over there and do it myself!!!!!!!
Love,
Falls
Posted by Daisym on June 18, 2005, at 14:19:10
In reply to Re: Daisy, how are you today?, posted by happyflower on June 18, 2005, at 13:16:55
Today is a hard day. I'm trying to take care of myself and meet some of my responsibilities but I find myself sitting in my office, not working, just kind of sitting. I thought maybe I would write here and see if it helps.
Yesterday was such an up and down day. And wouldn't you know it, I turned on Oprah and the whole show was about csa. I couldn't seem to turn it off (sorry Falls) because I was hearing my life come out of other people's mouths. I kept telling myself, "at least THAT didn't happen" -- the worst segment was on forgiveness. Oprah says we HAVE to forgive to move on. I found myself screaming at the TV -- "HOW?!" *sigh* My mom called at the end of the show so maybe I missed the how part. She didn't make me feel better.
I have a good friend who is a child psychologist. Her specialty is attachment. She was an abused child her self, from her dad. She called last night due to an email I sent her. We talked about releasing the dutiful daughter who emerged when my dad arrived and how to begin to do that. She suggested planting a pink rose bush over her "grave." I couldn't believe the tears this brought out. I think I still need that part of me to protect me. She insisted that I don't because I can't get free until I let her go. She wants me to be mom, wife, friend and boss. No more daughter. But if I give this up, aren't I giving up hope of ever having the parents I needed? She didn't push, she knows it is going to take a long time. But I guess it was good that she is thrilled with my therapist, she said, "it sounds like he knows what he is doing. Most of us (meaning psychologists) can't stand the heat of the kitchen you are in and we get out." It gave me a lot to think about.
Today is my wedding anniversary. It started with my husband announcing that he was in a very bad mood, he didn't know why but I should stay away from him for awhile. He said, "it is my turn to brood." I'll take that as a slap.
Tomorrow is Father's day. I want to sit in the dark closet all day. I didn't even send a card. I'm supposed to go to my inlaws but I don't know how to get through that. I'd rather stay home by myself. But that feels really dangerous.
I just realized how morose all this is. Are you sorry you asked? I'll stop now. I do appreciate the support. You have no idea how much I need it.
Posted by Dinah on June 18, 2005, at 15:00:31
In reply to Re: Daisy, how are you today?, posted by Daisym on June 18, 2005, at 14:19:10
Posted by pegasus on June 18, 2005, at 15:03:42
In reply to Re: Daisy, how are you today?, posted by Daisym on June 18, 2005, at 14:19:10
Thanks for writing, Daisy. It sounds really tough for you this weekend. Please keep writing if it helps. Don't worry about sounding morose. I didn't think it did anyway. It just sounds like you're working with your pain, which is a good thing.
I'm sorry your husband is being a poop on your anniversary. So, here's a dozen red roses and a lovely gourmet dinner and hugs and kisses from babble to you in honor of your anniversary.
We'll be thinking about you tomorrow. Please let us know what you decide to do. Is there any way you can do something special for yourself tomorrow? Especially if you can skip the in-laws, but don't want to stay home alone. Maybe it's a good day for a pedicure, or some shoe shopping with a friend?
pegasus
Posted by Tamar on June 18, 2005, at 15:22:42
In reply to Re: Daisy, how are you today?, posted by Daisym on June 18, 2005, at 14:19:10
> Today is a hard day. I'm trying to take care of myself and meet some of my responsibilities but I find myself sitting in my office, not working, just kind of sitting. I thought maybe I would write here and see if it helps.
>
> Yesterday was such an up and down day. And wouldn't you know it, I turned on Oprah and the whole show was about csa. I couldn't seem to turn it off (sorry Falls) because I was hearing my life come out of other people's mouths.It’s compelling, isn’t it? No matter how triggering, it’s pretty much impossible to switch off.
> I kept telling myself, "at least THAT didn't happen" -- the worst segment was on forgiveness. Oprah says we HAVE to forgive to move on. I found myself screaming at the TV -- "HOW?!" *sigh* My mom called at the end of the show so maybe I missed the how part. She didn't make me feel better.
I doubt it’s possible to get fully into the ‘how’ in the short time a TV show has to offer. I expect it wouldn’t have helped much even if you had seen it.
My personal view is that forgiveness is overrated. That probably comes from my theological perspective, though; I find it hard to believe that forgiveness is possible without the repentance of the person who did wrong. However, it may be possible to make peace with the past. But I think that’s different from forgiveness.
Having said that, I think we need to forgive ourselves somehow. It’s so easy to blame ourselves and to believe we invited abuse. I think that coming to believe it truly wasn’t our fault is a kind of self-forgiveness. (And, in my case, forgiving my body for betraying me.)
> I have a good friend who is a child psychologist. Her specialty is attachment. She was an abused child her self, from her dad. She called last night due to an email I sent her. We talked about releasing the dutiful daughter who emerged when my dad arrived and how to begin to do that. She suggested planting a pink rose bush over her "grave." I couldn't believe the tears this brought out.
Wow. That’s a powerful image. Your friend is good!
> I think I still need that part of me to protect me. She insisted that I don't because I can't get free until I let her go. She wants me to be mom, wife, friend and boss. No more daughter. But if I give this up, aren't I giving up hope of ever having the parents I needed?
I’m not entirely sure I understand. Does being a dutiful daughter give you hope of having the parents you needed? Or does it protect you from the parents you do have? Sorry, I didn’t quite get what you meant.
> She didn't push, she knows it is going to take a long time. But I guess it was good that she is thrilled with my therapist, she said, "it sounds like he knows what he is doing. Most of us (meaning psychologists) can't stand the heat of the kitchen you are in and we get out." It gave me a lot to think about.
Yes indeed: your therapist is fantastic!
> Today is my wedding anniversary. It started with my husband announcing that he was in a very bad mood, he didn't know why but I should stay away from him for awhile. He said, "it is my turn to brood." I'll take that as a slap.
Ouch! I hope after a bit of brooding he becomes sunny and cheerful and properly appreciative of you.
> Tomorrow is Father's day. I want to sit in the dark closet all day. I didn't even send a card. I'm supposed to go to my inlaws but I don't know how to get through that. I'd rather stay home by myself. But that feels really dangerous.Is there someone else you can spend time with so you don’t have to go to your in-laws but don’t have to stay home alone either? I know it’s hard to get out of doing the things you ‘should’ do (like visiting in-laws for fathers’ day) but on the other hand it’s very liberating to do what you need to do for yourself and never mind what the relatives think of you.
> I just realized how morose all this is. Are you sorry you asked? I'll stop now. I do appreciate the support. You have no idea how much I need it.
(((((daisy)))))
Definitely not sorry I asked. And no need to stop. I hope your day improves.
Tamar
Posted by annierose on June 18, 2005, at 16:09:39
In reply to Re: Daisy, how are you today?, posted by Daisym on June 18, 2005, at 14:19:10
HI Daisy -
I happened to be home making dinner during Oprah too. It wasn't about forgiving (in this case) your father. I wish I could remember the words, because I did think about you. It was more about forgiving yourself. Giving yourself permission to grieve about the healthy relationship you will never have (with your father). Also, forgiving yourself, because most woman tend to blame themselves.
Okay, okay, I just went on Oprah's web site and they did have a few quotes from the show:
T.D. Jakes (their guest expert):
"The conflict, emotionally, had to be overwhelming, because there is a natural instinct to love the father. And yet, when you're violated, you're emotionally confused. You think that if you go public, people will reject you, that somehow it's your fault. But that is what gave him the power. They're invisble walls, but very high and very difficult walls to climb over."
Oprah on forgiveness:
"The best definition of forgiveness I ever heard is giving up the hope that the past could be any different. I love that definition because it doesn't mean that you then have to accept that person back into your life. Forgiveness does not mean I now want to have you over for dinner. It doesn't mean I want to associate with you. It means I will no longer be tied to the past."
T.D. Jakes:
"When you forgive, they no longer hold you hostage. Anger is an umbilical cord that keeps you tied to the past. As long as you're angry about it, you're still tied to it. And the person is still controlling you, even with your rage." --- not sure I like that last idea, letting go seems like an impossible burden to overcome
"Forgiveness is not about exonerating them. Forgiveness is about empowering you. It's more about you then it is about them. Cut the cord that ties you to the past or you're going to lose your future"
Here are some ideas to discuss and think about. I do like Oprah's definition of forgiveness better.
Annierose
Posted by Shortelise on June 18, 2005, at 16:22:34
In reply to Re: Daisy, how are you today?, posted by Daisym on June 18, 2005, at 14:19:10
Daisy, talk about brave!
Tomorrow, could you go to a spa? Or to the park? Or the woods for a long hike?
Could you go skating? Or to a double feature and sit through it twice.Could you take yourself out, and spend the day somewhere away from Dads?
I hate the losses.
Daisy, I am so sorry. Please try to do what feels best.
ShortE
Posted by fallsfall on June 18, 2005, at 16:38:27
In reply to Re: Daisy, how are you today?, posted by Daisym on June 18, 2005, at 14:19:10
Do make plans that don't have you all alone tomorrow. But if you don't have to go to your in-laws, that would be great.
I'm sorry your husband is grumpy. Did he give any reason for his bad mood?
And write here often. We can't make the board active on the weekends if nobody writes!!!
Sending hugs your way,
Falls
Posted by Aphrodite on June 18, 2005, at 17:43:11
In reply to Re: Daisy, how are you today?, posted by Daisym on June 18, 2005, at 14:19:10
I'm sorry your weekend is so tough. And husbands . . . if only a little attention is diverted from them, they have to pout. I realize I'm generalizing here, but that sounds like that is his issue.
I really like the idea of planting the rose bush; it's something concrete you can do. Could you stay home and do something like that tomorrow? That may not feel safe, but it's probably better than the triggers hangin' with the inlaws with a brooding husband can bring.
I hope you can find some peace. It's so hard to spend your life serving, doing the "right things", making the sacrifical choices all the while wondering when it's going to bring some reward to you. I wish you could just cut all ties with your father and never look back, but then there are your children, your siblings, etc. It just shouldn't be this hard. It's not fair.
Do you see your T on Monday? Hang in there until you can connect with him again. (((Daisy)))
Posted by jazzed on June 18, 2005, at 17:47:30
In reply to Re: Daisy, how are you today?, posted by Daisym on June 18, 2005, at 14:19:10
Daisy,
I'm so sorry that you're having such a bad time. This has been really difficult, and no, I don't think anyone is sorry they asked. You are so sweet and kind, and everyone wants you to feel better. Happy Anniversary, I wish it was better. Sorry your husband has chosen this time to "brood". Do what you think would be best for Daisy, and let others worry about themselves, but please keep yourself safe.
>But if I give this up, aren't I giving up hope of ever having the parents I needed?
Daisy, I can only speak for myself here. My dad was abusive. Not nearly what you went through, and I continued to love him because he was my dad. BUT, when he died, it was freeing. I hope that doesn't sound harsh or callous, but there were things I could then let go. It happened with my mom too because she never let me forget some terrible things in my life, and as much as I loved her and as painful as her death was, I knew I'd never have to face those painful issues again, or at least not have them thrown up in my face. I don't think it means you can't have the parents you wanted. Those can be created in your own mind. I've reinvented some aspects of my parents, and it doesn't always work, but I can continue to play it out in my head. I hope that helps and doesn't trivialize it.
> Most of us (meaning psychologists) can't stand the heat of the kitchen you are in and we get out." It gave me a lot to think about.
>
Did she mean most T's quit? Hmmmm. Well, I think your T is in it for the long haul, and you don't have to worry or protect him. I think he can handle it, he's "watching the store"."it is my turn to brood." I'll take that as a slap.
As well you should. This is not the day to have a bad mood. I hope he recovers and you can enjoy some of the day.>
> I just realized how morose all this is. Are you sorry you asked? I'll stop now. I do appreciate the support. You have no idea how much I need it.((((HUGS))))
Jazzy
Posted by gardenergirl on June 18, 2005, at 18:48:10
In reply to Re: Daisy, how are you today? » Daisym, posted by jazzed on June 18, 2005, at 17:47:30
Hi Daisy,
I asked how you were doing in your other thread before I saw this one.I didn't watch Oprah, but I agree with whoever it was who pointed out that a sixty minute show cannot possibly present the entire picture of such a complex issue. It does sound like you resonated with it. And with your friend.
I do think that there is grief involved about giving up the hope for having a normal relationshop with your parents. I do think you have to grieve that, and the injuries of the past in order to move on. I'm not sure I would call that forgiveness, but it does lead to constructing a new meaning for yourself.
At any rate, now is an absolutely appropriate time for you to be selfish, regardless of your anniversary, Father's Day, or whatever. You can choose what you want to do and are able to do.
((((daisy))))
Sending along comforting and healing energy.
gg
Posted by daisym on June 18, 2005, at 23:32:59
In reply to Re: Daisy, how are you today?, posted by pegasus on June 18, 2005, at 15:03:42
I guess it is a bad sign when I don't even want to go shoe shopping, isn't it?
Thanks for the support. I'll keep posting as I can.
Posted by daisym on June 18, 2005, at 23:58:41
In reply to Re: Daisy, how are you today? » Daisym, posted by Tamar on June 18, 2005, at 15:22:42
>>>>I’m not entirely sure I understand. Does being a dutiful daughter give you hope of having the parents you needed? Or does it protect you from the parents you do have? Sorry, I didn’t quite get what you meant.
<<<<I think the dutiful daughter believes that if she can meet her parents expectations and their needs, she will win their approval and keep their love. I think she is the buffer between the "me" and my parents. The problem is, I hate her. She basically cowtows to them and goes to great lengths to keep them happy. Both mom and dad, but more dad. But I also need her, because I don't trust that I can handle their disappointment or disapproval. Besides, I don't know who I am, so I need this front to not feel naked and raw with them.
>>>>>>Having said that, I think we need to forgive ourselves somehow. It’s so easy to blame ourselves and to believe we invited abuse. I think that coming to believe it truly wasn’t our fault is a kind of self-forgiveness. (And, in my case, forgiving my body for betraying me.)
<<<<<Intellectually I believe this. I know it wasn't my fault. But I keep looking for "why?" and examining my ability to have been seductive or "bad" in some way. I know you know what I mean. I'm not sure what you mean about forgiving your body for betraying you...is it that you had a response or is that you developed? I struggle with this too. We've talked about it a bunch of times in therapy. My therapist is very blunt - "the body responds to stimulation. Even little kids feel pleasure, which is why they masterbate. The hardest thing to unravel is the braid of terror and pleasure that comes from this kind of abuse." I hate that my memories include body sensations. It is disturbing and confusing.
Thank you for saying you aren't sorry you asked. I still think I need to keep apologizing.
Posted by daisym on June 19, 2005, at 0:01:39
In reply to Re: Daisy, how are you today? » Daisym, posted by Tamar on June 18, 2005, at 15:22:42
Posted by daisym on June 19, 2005, at 0:02:21
In reply to Re: Daisy, how are you today?, posted by pegasus on June 18, 2005, at 15:03:42
Posted by daisym on June 19, 2005, at 0:14:27
In reply to Re: Quotes from the Oprah show » Daisym, posted by annierose on June 18, 2005, at 16:09:39
Thanks for looking up those quotes, Annie. I think what bothered me the most was the "just" parts -- you "just" have to let go, you "just" have to forgive. And Oprah can choose to not associate with her Uncle but what if you have to?
I'm confused too because I read that in order to heal we must get in touch with how angry we are, yet in order to heal, we need to let go of the anger. THIS IS SO HARD.
The hardest part -- the conflict between love and hate. Letting go of the past so that you can have a future. Does this mean you let go of your parents? I know all the intellectual answers, really I do. And if I was talking to anyone else I would be able to sort out the good parts and the bad parts and I would probably tell someone else that they need to form a new, adult-to-adult relationship with her parents because you can't change the past.But the youngest part of me still loves her daddy and still longs for her mommy to notice her pain. All she wants is a safe lap to crawl into. I need to learn how to stop wanting what I can't have. Then maybe I can forgive myself.
Posted by daisym on June 19, 2005, at 0:21:37
In reply to Re: Daisy, how are you today? » Daisym, posted by Shortelise on June 18, 2005, at 16:22:34
I don't feel brave ShortE. The horrible thought is that if I were brave, I'd stop thinking about letting go of life and do it. I'm a coward.
I also know that if I do let go, it will be because I lack the courage to face the pain anymore.
Either way, I'm anything but brave.
Posted by daisym on June 19, 2005, at 0:37:29
In reply to Re: Daisy, how are you today? » Daisym, posted by fallsfall on June 18, 2005, at 16:38:27
Being alone still sounds like the best idea but I realize that it isn't a good one. I'll try to post tomorrow if I can.
Things with hubby are complicated. I think he is having a bad day and I think he is worried about me. I wish I could take back what I've told him because I hate being so much trouble. I don't think in 22 years I've ever needed him as much as I have the past few months. It is hard to be faced with the fact that he might not be able to meet this need.
I talked with my therapist about this today. He agrees that this is a very scary place for me to be because I've set things up to always be the caretaker. It is hard on those around me to suddenly have things switched on them. He talked a lot about trust and being able to tolerate the insecurity of asking for support. He worries about what will happen if once again it is proven that I should only rely on myself.
The other thing that I'm faced with is this confusing swirl of wanting to avoid therapy and needing to spend 24/7 there. It feels so out of control. I'm looking forward to a time when things finally settle down.
They will, right?
Posted by daisym on June 19, 2005, at 0:41:03
In reply to Re: Daisy, how are you today? » Daisym, posted by Aphrodite on June 18, 2005, at 17:43:11
Thanks Aphrodite. I know you can relate to pouty husbands.
yes, I go to therapy on Monday. This is the last week before his vacation. I know we need to talk about that but I want to stick my head in the sand and pretend like it isn't going to happen.
I need to think about the rose bush idea. Maybe I can plant it and convince myself that this will be a peaceful place to leave pieces of myself. Reminds me of you burying things on the beach. Did you ever go back and dig them up? (Metaphorically, of course.)
Posted by daisym on June 19, 2005, at 0:48:20
In reply to Re: Daisy, how are you today? » Daisym, posted by jazzed on June 18, 2005, at 17:47:30
Thank you for sharing about your parents. I'm sorry for your pain. It sounds like you've come to terms with a lot of it. I hope I can some day. What we want and need from our parents is so very complicated, isn't it? It reminds me of how much responsibility I have to my own children.
I do think my friend meant that a lot of therapists can't take how needy "we" get sometimes. I think about the amount of contact I have with mine -- it seems extraordinary that he would put himself out for me so much. (I know, I know, I pay him but...)There is a lot written in the literature about therapist burn-out, about compassion fatigue, etc. etc. I bring it up constantly. He tells me he is really good at taking care of himself, I don't have to.
I appreciate your support.
Posted by daisym on June 19, 2005, at 0:57:29
In reply to Re: Daisy, how are you today?, posted by gardenergirl on June 18, 2005, at 18:48:10
>>>>I do think that there is grief involved about giving up the hope for having a normal relationshop with your parents. I do think you have to grieve that, and the injuries of the past in order to move on. I'm not sure I would call that forgiveness, but it does lead to constructing a new meaning for yourself.
<<<<I do think there is grief involved; a lot actually. We've talked in therapy about whether this is depression or grief. Often times it does feel like someone or something has died, it is that intense. And I think the process is similar to the grief process of losing a loved one. You go through similar stages.
I'm still in the stage of wanting what I know I can't have. I don't know how to get past this. I feel stuck at this junction. And it doesn't feel like something you can transfer to someone else. And it sucks so bad that you can't ever, ever go back and MAKE your parents create safety for you. I feel like something was stolen from me. I guess it was -- trust and innocence.
And as I write that, I feel dramatic and stupid. So many more people have had much worse lives and trauma than I have. I need to get over myself.
Thank you for the energy waves. I feel them washing over me.
Hugs, Daisy
Posted by daisym on June 19, 2005, at 0:58:54
In reply to Re: Daisy, how are you today?, posted by happyflower on June 18, 2005, at 13:16:55
Didn't mean to skip over you. I appreciate the warm wishes and support. I'll send them right back at you!
Hugs from me,
Daisy
Posted by happyflower on June 19, 2005, at 7:57:08
In reply to Re: Daisy, how are you today? » fallsfall, posted by daisym on June 19, 2005, at 0:37:29
> >
> I don't think in 22 years I've ever needed him as much as I have the past few months. It is hard to be faced with the fact that he might not be able to meet this need.
>
Hey Daisy, I am going through the same thing right now. I need him to meet my needs but his overwhelming problems are preventing him from being "my rock". It hurts and is very disapointing to me.> He worries about what will happen if once again it is proven that I should only rely on myself.
>
I too fall into this trap, but now I can count on my T for some support while I am going through all of this. My T knows I am not getting the support from my husband right now, so I am being a little clingy to him. But he told me not to feel bad about it, because it is okay with him and he will try to do what he can for me to feel safe especiallly if we start EMDR again.> The other thing that I'm faced with is this confusing swirl of wanting to avoid therapy and needing to spend 24/7 there. It feels so out of control. I'm looking forward to a time when things finally settle down.
>
I was feeling this a couple of weeks ago. It is like you need your T but you don't want to "need him". I told my T this and he understood and told me that it was okay to "need" him right now, that is what he is here for. He said don't worry I have enough support for all his patients and I can take all I want, because he has a endless supply! lol
Go forward in thread:
Psycho-Babble Psychology | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.