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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Dinah on May 17, 2011, at 20:52:24
I've been seeing my therapist again. Cautiously. Things aren't the same, and in some ways that's good. Some ways it isn't. The roles are firmer again, the boundaries tighter, and while there is some feeling of loss in that there is also a feeling of things being as they should be. I think the boundaries might be comfortable for me more than bending them is gratifying.
He's not as central to my life as he used to be. It may be that he never will be again. I see that as mostly bad.
In reaching about for what we should be doing in our sessions, we've probably hit on a few areas in my life that could use some improvement. We talked a bit about spirituality, though that didn't go particularly well. He drew the boundary far more firmly than he needed to, and mortally offended me. Things were dicey for a bit, but I suppose he adequately explained. Still, I'm (perhaps stubbornly) avoiding that topic.
We're currently talking about my living in my head as a way to avoid feeling things, and I have been given homework to do things with my hands and body instead of my brain.
His pet project seems to be to get me more involved socially in the non-cyber world. I suspect this is more important to him than to me, but if I'm to let him be my therapist I suppose I have to let him have his notions.
I offered to do the stupid egg of shame. But I think maybe he thinks I may not be entering it with the proper spirit. :) So he put the issue off for the time being.
It's not the same, and it will probably never be the same, and I grieve for what I had. I don't think I'll ever understand why people see growth as a good thing.
Posted by sleepygirl2 on May 17, 2011, at 21:31:37
In reply to Cautiously re-engaging, posted by Dinah on May 17, 2011, at 20:52:24
I had to laugh when you mentioned that egg of shame. That thing just won't leave you alone ;-)
What is it again? Every shameful experience you've ever had in an egg? Writing, drawing? What was it?
So, it's very different with him now?
Posted by Dinah on May 17, 2011, at 22:44:26
In reply to Re: Cautiously re-engaging » Dinah, posted by sleepygirl2 on May 17, 2011, at 21:31:37
It's different. It seems very different, but perhaps *it* isn't. Perhaps *I* am different. But no, the roles are definitely more formal than before I left.
http://www.healingforthesoul.org/pdf/Trauma%20Egg.pdf
To be fair to him, I offered to do the egg of shame after he said something about my resisting him when he pushed me in therapy. I offered to do it to be a "good" client. My offer was sincere, if ungracious.
Posted by Solstice on May 18, 2011, at 9:58:23
In reply to Cautiously re-engaging, posted by Dinah on May 17, 2011, at 20:52:24
> I've been seeing my therapist again. Cautiously. Things aren't the same, and in some ways that's good. Some ways it isn't. The roles are firmer again, the boundaries tighter, and while there is some feeling of loss in that there is also a feeling of things being as they should be. I think the boundaries might be comfortable for me more than bending them is gratifying.
>
> He's not as central to my life as he used to be. It may be that he never will be again. I see that as mostly bad.
I think you are courageous. Especially because while mourning losses with respect to your therapeutic relationship... you are staying In it.. and wisely wearing appropriate protective armour.I'm thinking about how much we rejoice as our helpless infant children develop self-protection... when they learn to be cautious about what they put in their mouth... cautious about staying away from the edges of 'cliffs' (whether it be stairs or whatever).. cautious about avoiding other kids that are physically aggressive. So maybe walking into the therapeutic relationship with armour on.. although it feels less innocent.. your taking control of protecting yourself from harm may serve to protect the relationship. And maybe that will lead to growth in feeling competent to protect yourself 'out there' in the world-at-large in ways that set you free?
> We're currently talking about my living in my head as a way to avoid feeling things, and I have been given homework to do things with my hands and body instead of my brain.
>
> His pet project seems to be to get me more involved socially in the non-cyber world. I suspect this is more important to him than to me, but if I'm to let him be my therapist I suppose I have to let him have his notions.
My therapist gives me grief about living in my head. I have difficulty 'wanting' to be socially interractive. T calls me a 'cave-dweller' :-) T says that living in my head is okay, but only as long as I'm doing it with others... in that what's in my head has to be shared in relationship with others.I saw my therapist yesterday, and we talked about the same stuff you're describing. My T has had a central focus on pushing me to get out of my cave for three years now. For about a year of that time, I stubbornly refused to budge. I preferred isolation :-) So I can relate to what you say about it being more important to your T that you get out, than it is to you. Just the same, though, from drawing on my own experience, I think that it's importance to my T is done on my behalf.. in that it would be more important to me if I truly realized how important it genuinely is. Yesterday my T pointed something out that I had to see the truth of. For all my resistance to getting more involved socially... I can't think of a time that I didn't enjoy it. I'm always glad I did it. The hard part for me, is making myself do it in the first place.
> It's not the same, and it will probably never be the same, and I grieve for what I had. I don't think I'll ever understand why people see growth as a good thing.Dinah.. there aren't many who are as good as you are at seeing every aspect of a particular thing. You have your eyes wide open to every angle. Your way of perceiving things is so characteristically balanced. You've said so many things on here that sound like you DO see growth as a good thing. Maybe.. because you see all the angles of things simultaneously... you're just more acutely aware of the inherent losses than most others.. so you grieve them.
Again... I celebrate your courage.
Solstice
Posted by Dinah on May 19, 2011, at 8:10:43
In reply to Re: Cautiously re-engaging, posted by Solstice on May 18, 2011, at 9:58:23
I suppose there are some advantages to not being dependent on sometimes less than dependable people who end up hurting you.
But how can they possibly compare to the feeling of safety and warmth from running to mama when you're scared or tired or sad, and having implicit trust that mama will make things, if not all better, then at least bearable. Because most things are bearable in that state of trust and connectedness.
It's all a matter of values. Growing up means a lesser degree of connectedness. Being a grownup, at its root, means an essential aloneness. It's lonely being a grownup. Yes, there are benefits to it. But by my values, all those benefits aren't worth a penny in comparison with the total connectedness of childhood.
Think about the words used to describe the stages of growing up, and the virtues of being grown up.
Perhaps I'm fortunate. Although my mother is completely impossible now, she was a wonderful mother to a very young child. At least in that way she was.
Having said all that, you'd think I *would* enjoy being around others. However, casual social relationships are not actually something I enjoy. For the most part, I don't find that I enjoyed myself afterwards. I might find it wasn't as bad as I thought, and I might be giddy happy from relief that it's over without incident. I don't understand the pleasure that is supposed to come from social chit chat. It ranges from mildly pleasurable to painful. While it's true that the happiest times in my life have been periods where I felt part of a group, there is a huge difference between feeling really and truly part of a group and being in a group of people.
But I suppose I'll let him push me and see if I'm wrong.
Posted by Dinah on May 19, 2011, at 8:11:10
In reply to Re: Cautiously re-engaging, posted by Solstice on May 18, 2011, at 9:58:23
Posted by annierose on May 19, 2011, at 16:45:24
In reply to Cautiously re-engaging, posted by Dinah on May 17, 2011, at 20:52:24
If I were you, I'd be cautious too. Protecting ourselves is something we are prone to do even under the best of circumstances, let alone when our hearts have been bruised.
I wish you didn't have to teach your therapist so much about becoming a good therapist for you. It'd be nice if they could read our minds and know what we want, what we need easily.
Posted by Dinah on May 20, 2011, at 17:56:37
In reply to Re: Cautiously re-engaging, posted by annierose on May 19, 2011, at 16:45:24
Maybe the entire situation sets us up for bruised hearts.
I don't know what will happen. But whatever happens, I think it's probably best not to leave on such a low note.
Posted by alexandra_k on May 21, 2011, at 15:43:22
In reply to Re: Cautiously re-engaging, posted by Dinah on May 19, 2011, at 8:10:43
> I suppose there are some advantages to not being dependent on sometimes less than dependable people who end up hurting you.
> But how can they possibly compare to the feeling of safety and warmth from running to mama when you're scared or tired or sad, and having implicit trust that mama will make things, if not all better, then at least bearable. Because most things are bearable in that state of trust and connectedness.
Oh. For me... The fact that mama simply won't be there when you need her makes any comfort that might be had from relationships not worthwhile on balance. Saves me a lot of grief.
Like whatever good feelings I got when Bob was around. Simply can't compare to the absence of pain I got now that I don't even think about him most days. Whatever good feelings I got from my therapist. Can't compare to the absence of pain I got now that I'm disconnected enough to not care particularly whether I see him or not.
I might have said this before... But there was a sense of resentment about it then. That I had needs that couldn't be met. Now... I dunno... There doesn't seem to be such a need anymore. So I can accept the disconnect. Mostly.
Um...
i hear you on social chit chat being a bit hard to bear. That is one of the things I find wonderful about the gym. Firstly, not too many girls so no chit chat about girly stuff that isn't terribly appealing to me. Secondly, it is activity focused rather than talking focused. Guys... Gotta love 'em. I wonder if there is something like that... Something where there isn't much talking but some doing... I wonder if you might get some pleasure engaging in the activity alongside others. Not engaging in an activity for the main purpose of making an excuse for social chit chat but actually engaging in an activity where the main purpose is the activity and social chit chat that isn't task focused is kept to a minimum.
No idea what, of course...
Gossip is something I find hard to bear. What is it about people when you get them together?? Otherwise I'd suggest some charity organizing thing... For orphans or something. Dogs. I don't know...
Gardening? Might be a bit chatty, though. Shot put? Dance?
Posted by Dinah on May 21, 2011, at 18:43:48
In reply to Re: Cautiously re-engaging, posted by alexandra_k on May 21, 2011, at 15:43:22
I suppose it's an absence of pain. But it's also an absence of... Well, I don't know. But while it may hurt less, it also makes me feel sad and lonely.
I do have places I can go to share common interests. I never really feel like part of the group though. Perhaps it's my self consciousness, or maybe I'm just too weird to fit in.
I'm glad you've found a community to be part of.
What's going on with you these days? Are you in school?
Posted by alexandra_k on May 22, 2011, at 7:51:37
In reply to Re: Cautiously re-engaging » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on May 21, 2011, at 18:43:48
yeah. i understand feeling sad and lonely. i still get those feelings. sometimes i wish i was closer to someone. and to people more generally. guess the latter is required for the former, really (for me).
i remember reading something somewhere about how people with a certain condition (that doesn't really matter) often go to shopping malls for some kind of connection with people. people being around and maybe smiles with strangers or something. but not too much. not chit chat. nothing more intense than that.
i never understood the mall thing since i'm more likely to get socially anxious in crowds. but i guess (before my injuries) i did used to go on walks by the river sometimes. smile at the odd person or pair of people walking past. maybe that was a similar thing.
i don't really feel like part of the group i'm training with... they are older guys for the most part. they care a lot about the bench press and i don't do that. they don't Oly Lift. so i just do my thing on the platform or the space next to it and they have their little sewing circle over by the bench press lol.
but i guess it is okay? normal? for me to feel a bit apart from them. i kinda like that actually. i like being a bit odd. a bit different. i feel that way no matter what i do... so the visible separateness (different demographic, different activity) kind of works for me. to feel part of the collective (they look after me when the younger bros crowd me or when younger chicks stare at me sometimes like i'm a freak). help distract me from them so i can refocus on the shared aspect - making progress on our different training goals.
sometimes i wish i was closer...
there is the odd guy who seems like he might be interested in me. i feel... ambivalent. i do want to be closer to someone... but i also feel like it wouldn't be good for me. seem to have some kind of even(ish) keel at the moment. only have my super-distressed thing very occasionally these days. i think being emotionally closer would throw me off balance. good times, yes. but bad times, too. i'm not sure that the bad times would make it worthwhile. and the smoking... i need to give up for me. and... i can't do that right now. but anyone who cared about me wouldn't tolerate my smoking... so... that kind of settles things, really (and maybe that is a part of why i still smoke).
and then there is the... weird aspect. not used to it at all. players. there is this whole 'game system' and 'alpha male' thing... some guys have weird ideas... that guy i liked a while back? turns out i didn't know him very well at all. he was enjoying the attention that he got from the bros by training with me. he sexualized the gym space but i was so new to it i didn't realize that it was his presence in particular that was doing that. he isn't really into Oly Lifting. just the attention it got him. i basically avoid him now. polite to him but cool. i'm kinda at peace / okay with it... though i feel like a bit of a fool for thinking that he cared about me at all. learned a lesson in taking things slow... but i don't know that i'm capable of that. lose my even keel... relationships probably aren't a good idea for me.
i don't really care about philosophy anymore. don't feel passionate about it. don't read it. find it hard to force myself to write. i think part of it is just what happens when you are at the stage that i am at. that things come right once the thesis is done. but i do worry that i've simply lost the joy with it. but even if i have lost the joy with it i need to earn a living. even if it really does feel like work... so long as i bloody do the work. part of this is my own fault, too, for bailing on the social interaction aspect. going to conferences / seminars / workshops / talks... that kind of thing is really very important for keeping one interested in things. and i haven't been going to those...
i don't know dinah.
not much has happened for me over the last year. scholarship ran out so needing to work to support my living costs. some tutoring work and some functions (catering basically) work. only just enough to get by... sort of... this can't keep up indefinately... supervisor gets back in a month or so and i need to give him a couple chapters by then. or... i'm in the sh*t basically (seriously). i'll make sure i get those chapters to him.
i'm... well i fell into a bit of depression / demoralization or something about not getting into med school. got myself psyched up about that being my next move. once it fell through... i felt at a loss really. not knowing what i wanted to do with my life anymore. the functions work is helping me see that most other jobs really aren't very palatable for me. academia would be much better if i can get into it. it isn't terribly likely (especially since i've bailed on the social aspect and i think i might well continue to do so). but i do want to finish my thesis now. get it done. who knows what my next move will be.
i do feel sad a lot. a little depressed, i guess. but really enjoy the gym. getting more enjoyment from teaching now compared to the functions work. getting into the spirit of writing up. partly it is scary because once i'm done... i won't be a student anymore. and that has been what i have been since... forever.
rant sorry...
how are things for you?
Posted by Solstice on May 22, 2011, at 7:56:54
In reply to Re: Cautiously re-engaging, posted by Dinah on May 19, 2011, at 8:10:43
> I suppose there are some advantages to not being dependent on sometimes less than dependable people who end up hurting you.
>
> But how can they possibly compare to the feeling of safety and warmth from running to mama when you're scared or tired or sad, and having implicit trust that mama will make things, if not all better, then at least bearable. Because most things are bearable in that state of trust and connectedness.I guess I haven't truly experienced what you're talking about here. I've ached for it... but my imagining of it seems to mock the ache... because I've never *known* it. I've known feeling deeply connected.. but I've knot known feeling exquisitely safe.
> It's all a matter of values. Growing up means a lesser degree of connectedness. Being a grownup, at its root, means an essential aloneness. It's lonely being a grownup. Yes, there are benefits to it. But by my values, all those benefits aren't worth a penny in comparison with the total connectedness of childhood.
>
> Having said all that, you'd think I *would* enjoy being around others. However, casual social relationships are not actually something I enjoy. For the most part, I don't find that I enjoyed myself afterwards. I might find it wasn't as bad as I thought, and I might be giddy happy from relief that it's over without incident. I don't understand the pleasure that is supposed to come from social chit chat. It ranges from mildly pleasurable to painful. While it's true that the happiest times in my life have been periods where I felt part of a group, there is a huge difference between feeling really and truly part of a group and being in a group of people.
I have trouble with some types of 'chit-chat.' I have a hard time staying 'in' conversations that center around what maybe can be called 'fluff'.... like shoes, hairstyles, reality tv, etc. I like conversations of substance, which is more given to one-on-one. As a rule, I'm not a 'large group' person, but sometimes they can't be avoided. In large groups, I tend to end up in conversation with just one person. I'm just not very good at the chit-chat 'fluff'.. except when the chit-chat is fun - playing around.>
> But I suppose I'll let him push me and see if I'm wrong.I guess the important thing is to let yourself be 'open' to new experiences. You just never know where it might lead.
Solstice
Posted by Dinah on May 23, 2011, at 9:42:44
In reply to Re: Cautiously re-engaging, posted by Solstice on May 22, 2011, at 7:56:54
I know how lucky I have been. I had that feeling with my mother when I was very young. And in a different way, I had it with my father until he died. I took care of my father as much as he took care of me, I suppose. More on a day to day basis. But I had a bone deep knowledge that he'd never let anything truly bad happen to me.
My problems with anxiety didn't really get out of control until I married and became an adult in the real world. I don't think I'll ever think that's a good thing.
I don't feel like the same person day to day when it comes to socializing. Some days it isn't so very bad, other days it's excruciating. I never know if I'll feel totally out of step or just slightly out of step. Last Sunday I went to a party and had a good time. I felt part of things. But I don't think I get what my therapist thinks I should get from the experience.
Posted by Dinah on May 23, 2011, at 9:44:41
In reply to Re: Cautiously re-engaging, posted by alexandra_k on May 22, 2011, at 7:51:37
I'm glad you're going to finish your thesis. I've been a bit worried that while the gym has really helped you in some ways, in other ways it may have been a refuge from the world. Which might in the long term have some negative consequences.
I think a certain amount of interpersonal caution is more than reasonable. But I'm not sure I'm a good person to judge. :)
Posted by Daisym on May 24, 2011, at 23:00:21
In reply to Re: Cautiously re-engaging, posted by Dinah on May 19, 2011, at 8:10:43
I'm wondering how it goes...
while it can never be the same, is it different but OK?
6 month after the significant rupture in my own therapy we are trying to talk about it, little by little. It remains hard to go back to it. But it has opened up new roads that really needed attention. (see below)
So I've been thinking about you, even as I'm not here that much. I often wish camp comfort really did exist.
This is the end of the thread.
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