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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by Annabelle Smith on May 24, 2011, at 17:57:39
Dear________
I just had a phone session with you. You and I both agreed that it went better than the previous phone session last week. I was better able to focus and sustain conversation on one topic. I certainly didn't feel fully present, but was at least able to begin to hear you and respond to you.
But I left feeling profoundly empty. I still feel this way. Part of it is because there are so many things that I wanted to discuss and didn't get to. We ended up talking about meditation and tools for me to use, for what felt like the entire time. I am not trying to be obstinate, but am not that attracted to meditation and the tools you offer. I am going to try to try them, but it is hard to make myself want to. As I have stated earlier, I get this awful feeling that this will be "as good as it gets," that meditation is about toleration and there will be no deep, core healing-- you won't even attempt to go there, in the way that you would for your other patients (I read one psychologist who authored a book on BPD who said that one should not even attempt deeper healing with a borderline). Maybe you won't. Maybe you think that meditation and tools are all that we need, and that I just must cope on my own, that any deeper healing is impossible.
Today, I have felt afraid. This morning at 4:30am I woke up with what felt like being choked by icy fingers. It was hard to breathe, and I felt like I was choking. Each time I swallowed, I felt choked. I realized it was drainage in my throat, but felt scared. Death seems near to us all. On Friday night, I had a bad dream. I'm afraid to write about it here, but will tell you about it.
Death seemed really near then. I feel upset about the tornadoes that have killed so many people. The same weather than gives us rainbows and the birdsong also sends tornadoes that tear people out of hospital windows. It makes me feel like the universe is indifferent to us-- that there is no God, that we are cosmically alone. It seems like there are constant storms, even here tonight at my house, and I feel scared.About the meditation, I also fear that it will blunt my intense feelings and emotions. For some reason, more than anything else, I feel a need to express these emotions-- sometimes it seems that whether negative or positive, what is important is the intensity, and it must be released, as it has always been repressed and bottled up inside. I think that intense feelings and sensitivity to the world are both a blessing and a curse. I feel strongly that somewhere deep within myself there resides both a blessing and a curse. I think that one may not be possible without the other. It is hard to be a sensitive person-- I think that you and I are both that way. But there are ways to cope. There are ways to direct our energy in positive channels-- writing, art, studying, researching, creativity, engaging new ideas, seeing the world in new ways. Maybe you are right and meditation is a way to cope too, a path to a higher experience of being alive, to bliss and fulfillment. I will try it; it doesn't hurt to try. But it does make me feel confused.
Maybe my problem is that I am spinning and stuck-- maybe meditation doesn't have to blunt our feelings. Maybe it can bring them out even more deeply and authentically, although even when I write that, I don't know that I believe it. I feel like my intense feelings and my endless thoughts are all that I have-- they constitute the substance of my being, and their blessing is one of the only things that is mine. I don't want anyone to take that away from me. I will not allow anyone to take that away from me. I hope you don't want to.
I feel like I need somebody to talk to. I wait for my session as for salvation, and then, it is over so quickly. I am really struggling with my faith. It feels gone, dead, empty. I feel hopeless. Maybe it doesn't really matter that much whether there is a God or not. But for me, right now, it does. I have been living within a certain way of seeing the world, and with God gone, I have an intolerable empty hole of meaninglessness and loneliness. I used to be able to tolerate my loneliness by talking to God. There were times where I felt intimately held, sometimes I even felt at one with God-- a pure bliss, wherein all seemed well, like a glimpse into eternity. But that is gone. I just want someone to talk to about God. I have thought of going back to my old habits-- asking my pastor if I could speak with him and emailing others. But those habits are what hurt me so terribly by becoming dependent upon others and then their telling me I was bad when I really opened up to them. Also, they would not understand the psychological and other factors underlying this-- they would not understand that they themeselves are contributers to my problems-- big contributers to the systems of power and authority from which I can't break free.
The other option I almost engaged tonight. I almost talked to my mom about it all-- but that wouldn't be right. I need to separate from her, not further engulf myself.
I definitely feel scared and alone. When our 45 minutes were up in the session today, I felt despair. It came as nausea. Pure, disgusting, impossible nausea. But I don't want anyone to take it away from me-- it is mine. It may be all that I have, but dear God, it is mine.
I need to talk to somebody.
Posted by Annabelle Smith on May 24, 2011, at 18:54:58
In reply to Dear____ Post-session feelings, posted by Annabelle Smith on May 24, 2011, at 17:57:39
I may be abusing my writing privileges here, but I am hurting. It is so hard after my session-- I feel the most empty, alone, and hopeless. It is so hard to find the energy. I feel like this is never going to get better. Trapped inside of a f*ck*ng riddle. I feel suicidal again.
Posted by Annabelle Smith on May 24, 2011, at 18:56:50
In reply to Hurting, posted by Annabelle Smith on May 24, 2011, at 18:54:58
One more thing, it is all for tonight.
The only words I have to pray
Dear God, have mercy.
Posted by Annabelle Smith on May 25, 2011, at 11:47:27
In reply to All for tonight, posted by Annabelle Smith on May 24, 2011, at 18:56:50
I feel ignored and rejected.
I feel so much pain, and feel ignored and rejected by everyone, family, acquaintances, most of you, even my therapist. At our last session, he referred in a general way to his other clients. I am trapped inside of myself and will be forever. No offense, please, but I feel that it is clique-ish on here. Either that, or you all hate me. I read about your sessions on here and feel so f*ck*ng jealous-- I can't even cry. God f*ck*ng dammit. I am once again being denied something. I am enraged.
I can get narcotics today. I will get them and hold them and save them. The world is ugly and I feel there is no hope. I won't do the action yet, but I think one day, God f*ck*ng dammit, one day.
The anguish is intolerable. I don't care much for Jesus and apart from what follows, he has never meant much to me, but I think the ultimate expression of meaninglessness and anguish and torment is the crucifixion. That is often the only meaningful thing for me. And sometimes that means everything to me.
I think there is a crucifixion at the center of reality.
The worst part of this is not the hurt, no matter how much pain and suffering. The worse part-- the hell, the anguish, the pain that I can only begin to feel approximated in the look of the bleeding divine-- is that everything is trapped inside of me with no exit. Alone with no f*ck*ng exit.
Posted by pegasus on May 25, 2011, at 13:09:49
In reply to I'm leaving this board, posted by Annabelle Smith on May 25, 2011, at 11:47:27
Hey, AB,
I'm sorry that you feel rejected and ignored here, as well as everywhere else in your life. It must be agonizing.
Speaking for myself, only, I wasn't ignoring or rejecting you. I was out sick with a sick kid yesterday, and now behind at work, so I didn't read until now. Maybe everyone on babble had a week like that?
It always looked to me as though you got an average number of responses to most (but not all) of your posts. As others have said in another thread, there aren't that many people here who read/post regularly, anymore. I think we've all had disappointingly meager - or no - responses to some of our posts in the past year. It works better when there are more participants. I'm sorry that it felt so far from enough for you. I know that feeling of having no one respond to posts, and it's not good.
It's pretty common for people to come here for support and then have a bad experience of one kind or another. It does seem that babble works better for some people than for others. I think if it is creating a lot of hurt and anger for you, it might be best not to post here. I'm not saying that I want you to leave. I'm saying that the ups and downs of a board like this seem to hurt some folks a lot. And you have so much hurt to deal with in your real life, I hate to see you getting hurt by babble as well.
But if it ever seems like the help outweighs the hurt enough, I'd love to hear from you again.
- Peg
Posted by emilyp on May 25, 2011, at 22:11:42
In reply to I'm leaving this board, posted by Annabelle Smith on May 25, 2011, at 11:47:27
Annabelle
I don't respond that often to others - only when I really feel I have something meaningful to say. And to be honest, I think I don't have anything meaningful to say to your posts because they deal with quite a few feelings, emotions and perspectives. I guess I feel somewhat overwhelmed. I also don't think I can identify with everything you feel. I suffer from depression. But my experience has been very different. After I read your 'letter', I just did not think that anything I would say would help you feel better or be of value.
Clearly you are hurting. I am sorry you feel that way. The only real suggestion I can make (and I made once it before) is that you should look into attending a day program. From what I read, you have so much going on in your mind. I cannot imagine one 50 minute session or even two a week will be enough to quiet your mind. If you cannot consider a day program, then perhaps maybe group therapy would help.
I am sorry I don't have more to offer
Posted by annierose on May 26, 2011, at 7:27:00
In reply to Dear____ Post-session feelings, posted by Annabelle Smith on May 24, 2011, at 17:57:39
>>>>I feel like my intense feelings and my endless thoughts are all that I have-- they constitute the substance of my being, and their blessing is one of the only things that is mine. I don't want anyone to take that away from me. I will not allow anyone to take that away from me.<<<
I stopped responding to your posts because the above quote says it all. You like these intense feelings. For you, it defines "living". Having a calm mind and body scares you. As Dr. Phil would ask, "How is that working for you?" You would rather hold on to the FEAR and turmoil then accept there is an alternative.
I do not take medications but have friends and family that successfully do. Most have/had positive experiences with medication. Sometimes, a calmer mind helps the therapy process along. But you don't want to hear that. You have already decided to hold onto the inner turmoil as your life perserver.
Threatening suicide is not helpful. Maybe taking the suggestions and help your therapist considers might be a wise first step.
Posted by annierose on May 26, 2011, at 7:30:44
In reply to I'm leaving this board, posted by Annabelle Smith on May 25, 2011, at 11:47:27
>>>>I am once again being denied something. I am enraged.<<<<
That is interesting that you say this ... you are not being denied anything. This board is open and has responded to you in the past.
YOU deny yourself everything. You even deny yourself the possibilty of life.
Posted by Dinah on May 26, 2011, at 13:14:30
In reply to I'm leaving this board, posted by Annabelle Smith on May 25, 2011, at 11:47:27
Perhaps you might feel more part of the group here if you responded to the posts of others. My therapist has been bugging me a lot lately about socializing. I told him Tuesday that I found it very difficult to feel part of a group. That I felt like a wading bird standing on one leg in a pond full of ducks. I can stand there one legged forever without feeling part of the flock.
He said that the way to feel part of the group is to not only physically be there but to invest myself. To give of myself to the group. That what I receive from the group will be, to some extent, commensurate with what I put into the group.
Naturally I rejected his advice, knowing that he couldn't possibly understand a wading bird, being a duck himself. But I'll pass it on to you, for what it's worth.
Posted by Daisym on May 26, 2011, at 14:04:55
In reply to Re: I'm leaving this board » Annabelle Smith, posted by Dinah on May 26, 2011, at 13:14:30
I agree with Dinah - although it hadn't really occured to me that you don't respond to others unless they are responding to what you initiate. If you step away from your own pain, it might give you purpose, which actually can lighten your own load. Counter intuitive, I know.
I'm struck by your need for intensity - you write that you want to hold on to it. Speaking from a brain chemical place, one can become addicted to
adrenaline. I think we've all read about excitement junkies who need to rush over and over again. The same thing can happen in the brain with fear and chaos - we need to feel the intensity of the anxiety, chemically speaking, to feel alive. It literally is a process of recovery to get past the craving for this. We can even self-create pain unconsciously to achieve the need for the chemicals. Given what you've written, it might be a place to begin watching. What happens when you meditate? What happens when you listen to soft music? Can you journal about happiness?All that said, I hope you find peace soon. You've been way too miserable for way too long.
Posted by Solstice on May 26, 2011, at 14:31:24
In reply to Re: I'm leaving this board » Annabelle Smith, posted by Dinah on May 26, 2011, at 13:14:30
I think he's right, Dinah. Case in point... is that on here, you are highly regarded.. very much valued and loved.. and maybe it's because you invest so much of yourself here... especially on this particular board.
And as for groups.. one thing I'm pretty sure of, is that every person in the group is primiarily concerned with whether they are accepted. I think anyone who goes into a group and just focuses on finding someone to listen to.. and offers interest and acceptance.. is going to find themselves quickly embraced. That's the way you are here.. and I imagine that if you could put the lid on your own self-consciousness and let the Dinah we all know do what she does so well here, you might be surprised when all those ducks start trying to stand on one leg :-)
Solstice
> Perhaps you might feel more part of the group here if you responded to the posts of others. My therapist has been bugging me a lot lately about socializing. I told him Tuesday that I found it very difficult to feel part of a group. That I felt like a wading bird standing on one leg in a pond full of ducks. I can stand there one legged forever without feeling part of the flock.
>
> He said that the way to feel part of the group is to not only physically be there but to invest myself. To give of myself to the group. That what I receive from the group will be, to some extent, commensurate with what I put into the group.
>
> Naturally I rejected his advice, knowing that he couldn't possibly understand a wading bird, being a duck himself. But I'll pass it on to you, for what it's worth.
Posted by Dinah on May 26, 2011, at 19:41:45
In reply to Re: I'm leaving this board » Dinah, posted by Solstice on May 26, 2011, at 14:31:24
You made me smile.
Posted by Willful on May 27, 2011, at 8:31:34
In reply to Dear____ Post-session feelings, posted by Annabelle Smith on May 24, 2011, at 17:57:39
~~. "We ended up talking about meditation and tools for me to use, for what felt like the entire time. I am not trying to be obstinate, but am not that attracted to meditation and the tools you offer. I am going to try to try them, but it is hard to make myself want to. As I have stated earlier, I get this awful feeling that this will be "as good as it gets," that meditation is about toleration and there will be no deep, core healing-- you won't even attempt to go there, in the way that you would for your other patients (I read one psychologist who authored a book on BPD who said that one should not even attempt deeper healing with a borderline). Maybe you won't. Maybe you think that meditation and tools are all that we need, and that I just must cope on my own, that any deeper healing is impossible."~~~
I think that I don't know what the idea of "deep healing" means to you, but I do think part of why I don't respond is that without meditation and other tools, and successful use of an Antidepressant, I believe there is no chance for any type of healing. I even question the notion of deep healing as you say, because there is no epiphany, no moment of rapturous transformation or redemption that comes from therapy. What there is is the mundane simple daily work of talking about what's really wrong, concretely and thougtfully, of working through, trying to understand and to reframe and reorganize your OWN mind and heart, in the context of a caring, consistent helper, who can contribute to your process.
You seem to be looking for a religious or mystical transfiguration of some srot, without all the awkwardness, trudging, frustration, ups and downs, stalls and half starts and steps forward, that lead slowly to more steps forward--and backward--over time-- with eventual insights and growth, that happen through all that-- nothing dreamy or ecstatic, but just daily life, lived better or more fully-- if you're lucky.
Without medication and a lot of work, you'll have the inner pain and desire that you seem to treasure-- for something that doesn't exist really except in the way that you currently experience it-- a sort of self-destructive longing for the redemptive touch of some magical or divine finger-- In real life, that doesn't happen--- it can only be longed for if you don't have anything of substance that is better, even if more mundane.
Whatever therapist said he didn't try deep healing with people with BPD certainly meant something very different from what you're imagining. But without a calmer mind and body, as Annie said, none of this is even possible to attempt, because you won't be able to see how chimerical your longings are, and gradually be able to give up the desire to be a victim who is delivered from her victimhood to enlightenment-- which as I guess I'm trying to say, just an unfulfillable fantasy, not what can really happen.
Willful
Posted by emmanuel98 on May 27, 2011, at 20:42:37
In reply to Re: Dear____ Post-session feelings, posted by Willful on May 27, 2011, at 8:31:34
I had intense and painful transference issues with my p-doc, yet I never left a session without feeling better, like I had learned something, we had accomplished something, I was working through painful issues in a constructive way.
It seems you never leave a session without feeling worse and this makes me wonder why you are so attached to therapy. You had an opportunity to move away and do a program that would have been challenging and fun and you chose to stay and be unhappy in therapy. Can you still move or is it too late to start this program? Because it doesn't seem like you derive any emotional benefit from therapy. You are in love with some idealized concept of your therapist and crave some sort of epiphany and oneness that will never happen. Therapy is hard work. You slog through painful stuff from your past and learn slow and hard techniques to regulate your emotions. If you have a good therapist, it will never end up with you having sex or staring in one another's eyes over dinner. It will just continue to be painful, frustrating hard work. If you accept this, you can learn to be an easier and lighter person. DBT techniques like meditation and mindful activities can help make you more in control of your emotions, more at ease in life. But the deep transformation you seek will not happen in therapy, especially not in DBT.
You seem to crave something from therapy which therapy does not provide. Is it really therapy you need? Or do you need a challenge and distraction in your life? That's what the program you rejected might provide.
This is the end of the thread.
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