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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 18 of 18. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by kara lynne on November 6, 2003, at 23:03:55
I'm feeling really split. My counselor has been there for me in many ways over the last 10 years, and lately even offered to help me get my business started at her office. She professes to be a friend and someone I can count on.
Wednesday I had an appt. to see her and she forgot about it. That happens, I guess. I rescheduled for today and it felt like we were swimming through molasses trying to communicate. I gave her an email I wanted her to read and as she was reading she kept looking up, trying to figure out who was talking outside the door. This is an office and a lot of people talk outside the door--she wasn't paying attention, plain and simple. She seemed bored with what I was saying. Then she would take a sorry swipe at pretending to pay attention, but seemed to be relying on formulaic responses rather than actually listening. I mentioned that we seemed to be 'missing each other' and she agreed. She also said the energy felt thick, and it had all day to her.
She was so distracted reading the email that she started giving automatic disapproval of the woman who wrote it-because that's what she expected I wanted. If anything I would have preferred the opposite canned response, but what I really wanted was for her to pay attention to the content: in it this woman had recalled an incident in Jr. High school where a girl had come up behind me and kicked me hard enough to make me cry. She said in retrospect she thought the girl who kicked me was jealous, and that I was targeted because I had a strong presence. It was a supportive email, whether or not it was true--which almost didn't matter.
That time in my life was really traumatic; I did get targeted in school, so much so that I had to be moved to a private school, and from there I entered a psychiatric hospital for depression. Today my counselor said, 'The girl probably kicked you because you were short and knew you wouldn't fight back.' Well it's ok if she thinks I don't have presence--maybe she was worried I would have delusions of grandeur. But I would have preferred a nice delusion of grandeur next to her response, which didn't help me at all.
Then she as good as asked me what response she should be giving me, and what I wish I'd said was 'an authentic one, please'. But she seemed far more concerned with the (inconsequential) noise in the other room than whatever that email might have meant to me.
I can't help but think that she doesn't do this with other clients no matter how 'thick' the energy is. Since I work for her I pretty much know, and I don't think I've ever seen her full out miss an appointment altogether. Yesterday I wasn't feeling well and she said, 'Oh, maybe that's why I forgot the appt.' which made me incredibly angry. Reminds me of all that 70's encounter group mumbo jumbo, where women were told they were responsible for being raped. (I apologize in advance to anyone sensitive to that; I am in no way endorsing the philosophy, but I have been unfortunate enough to hear it.)
Monday she is taking me to lunch to meet with another woman in my profession so I can get tips on how to start a business. That would be evidence for opposing counsel--the side that argues she really is my friend and cares about me. But this other behavior has me scratching my head not knowing what to think. And feeling really badly about it.
I know she's human. People are imperfect, people forget. But this is troubling me, and all the more troubling because she would be the person I would be talking about this kind of thing to, but it's about her so I can't. I'm pretty good about bringing up stuff that gets in the way--I told her I had a moment where I took it personally yesterday that she forgot our appt. But this added so much injury to the insult that I don't think I could address it, at least not now. I also think she might be feeling a little defensive about yesterday and maybe that made things worse today, but I don't know.
Meanwhile I'm trying not to let it interfere too much with the next time I see her, which will be Monday--the day we meet for lunch with that woman.
How do you not take such an incident personally? I'm not sure whether that's possible, or even appropriate. Maybe it is personal and I need to figure out what to do about it. I sat crying in my chicken ceaser tonight over this. But I didn't let it stop me from getting more dressing and extra croutons.
I don't know what to think.
Posted by Medusa on November 7, 2003, at 2:40:16
In reply to Oh man., posted by kara lynne on November 6, 2003, at 23:03:55
Kara!
What I'm going to say here will probably sound unfriendly. I'm trying to be supportive, but I can't do that in a coddling way.
> She professes to be a friendThis is a problem. A *big* problem. A therapist isn't your friend. It's really either / or, and someone who's been your therapist even ONCE can't be your friend.
It sounds like 10 years was too long to go without that boundary getting blurred. Or maybe she didn't have ethical boundaries in place in the first place.
>and someone I can count on.
>You *should* be able to count on your therapist, a trained professional with a conscience. The behavior you describe isn't professional. Which can happen when friendship is attempted.
If she's not taking you seriously in therapy, how could she take you seriously as a friend and business connection?
I don't buy the upcoming lunch as "evidence" for her.
> How do you not take such an incident personally?
>You *DON'T*. This was personal. She violated your boundaries, she disrespected you. She treated you as "less-than", she blamed you for HER mistake.
>
> I don't know what to think.How about if you discontinue the therapist-patient relationship. I highly, highly recommend a short-term therapy, such as a systems approach. It's completely different to talk therapy. You can always go back to talk therapy if you want to. (Hopefully with a caring professional.)
You might be obligated to continue the work relationship (I don't know the history with this ... what do you do for her?) until you can get other work. This woman is NOT giving you the respect you deserve, and unfortunately, most of the world will disrespect you as far as you allow. A good therapist should be aware of this dynamic and not fall into it ... but yours screwed up. So she's gotta go. Make space for respect in your life, Kara - I know you feel rotten, but you really can be treated very well. You just have to make some very unpleasant changes in order for this to happen.
Posted by Dinah on November 7, 2003, at 9:44:16
In reply to Oh man., posted by kara lynne on November 6, 2003, at 23:03:55
I agree with Medusa that some real dual relationships are being set up here. I realize your counselor isn't a therapist and may not be bound by those rules, but those rules are there for a reason, because they're good for us whether or not we think so. :) You might want to discuss this with her.
As far as the distraction and everything goes, could there be something going on personally in her life? My therapist has occasionally been less than his best. They aren't supposed to let their personal lives interfere with therapy, and I'm sure they try their best. But they aren't perfect, and cancelling sessions because they had stuff going on that distracted them wouldn't be particularly helpful for me - I don't know about you. I'd feel abandoned.
Of course, I also felt it was my fault, that I was doind something wrong, when he seemed off. And if he could tell I was upset about it, he'd manage to convey that it wasn't my fault without burdening me with his problems.
Is it possible that something similar is going on? I'd try to talk that out with her.
But I'd also try to reassess how well the boundaries are holding.
Posted by Poet on November 7, 2003, at 10:21:24
In reply to Oh man., posted by kara lynne on November 6, 2003, at 23:03:55
Exactly what Medusa and Dinah said and...
Your counselor was being inattentive to your needs and in my opinion downright rude. You are more important than what was going on outside her office.
There is no excuse for ignoring you and trying to hear what was going on outside the office. My therapist shares a suite of offices with a bunch of other therapists. Her office is directly off the waiting area. She has a white noise machine in and outside her office so there are no distractions and importantly so no one can overhear a therapy session.
Keep repeating to yourself, I deserve respect.
Poet
Posted by kara lynne on November 7, 2003, at 16:06:03
In reply to Oh woman, posted by Medusa on November 7, 2003, at 2:40:16
Hi Medusa,
Thanks for the reply. You're right--the boundaries are blurred. Moreso because she's not a licensed psychotherapist, she doesn't claim to do therapy. But she does do counseling, even for therapists, and no matter what she does it doesn't justify her behavior yesterday. And even if we were friends she wasn't being a very good one.I recently attempted short term therapy--I like the idea. But I've been hit with some financial problems that will prohibit the opportunity to pursue that further until I can start bringing in some money. So I've worked for this woman largely in trade for counseling. It's probably just another sick, enmeshed relationship that I don't want to face letting go of. Gee how out of character for me.
This is further complicated by her providing me the opportunity to start a business with no overhead. Maybe I'll have to let go of that idea as well, and pursue other options.
And the walls come tumbling down... It's like everything I counted on in my life is falling apart.
Posted by kara lynne on November 7, 2003, at 16:20:46
In reply to Re: Oh man. » kara lynne, posted by Dinah on November 7, 2003, at 9:44:16
- I don't know about you. I'd feel abandoned-
I feel abandoned. I feel humiliated. I feel insignificant. I feel stupid.
I guess something could be going on in her life to account for the distraction, but she pulls it together for her other clients. Maybe it's because of those blurry boundaries--that I'm working for her eg, that she allows them to get in the way where she wouldn't for someone else. I don't like that arrangement. Distraction and disrepect weren't included in our contract agreement.
Of course I take it to heart and feel that I'm boring her, or annoying her with my issues. I have to decide how much of this I want to try to talk to her directly about--but I think I may have hit a blind spot of hers on this one.
It's hard because she has been a big part of my life; I live in this area because of her, most of my friends are contacts I've made through her, I work for her, take classes from her, and have counted on her a resource when I felt I had precious little to rely on.
As always, I appreciate your support and suggestions.
Posted by kara lynne on November 7, 2003, at 16:28:06
In reply to Re: Oh man., posted by Poet on November 7, 2003, at 10:21:24
It was rude, wasn't it? With barely an attempt to conceal it.
I seem to be surrounded by these emotionally twisted dynamics: Here is someone who teaches women how to have more self-acceptance, someone who has been trying to help me attain more self-respect in my life and my relationships, but who treated me with an embarassing lack of regard.
A repeat pattern, by someone trying to break me of the pattern.
Thank you Poet, for your respect.
Posted by fallsfall on November 8, 2003, at 22:30:51
In reply to Re: Oh man./ Poet, posted by kara lynne on November 7, 2003, at 16:28:06
Kara,
I'm sorry. I know that you have relied on her, and she often seems to help you a lot. This is a nasty situation. The dual relationship has concerned me in the past.
I think that you HAVE to talk to her directly and very openly about what you are seeing. You need to do this for two reasons. First, if by some chance you are experiencing transference here (i.e. if she is paying attention to you, but you think that she isn't), you need to work it out with her. Second, if there is no transference and she is not giving you the attention you deserve, then she needs to be confronted and you deserve an apology and a referral. The two of you have known each other long enough that you owe it to each other to find out what is going on.
If she was not giving you the attention you deserved and is not able to completely ensure you that this problem won't happen again, then you need to stop seeing her. A bad theraputic relationship can do real damage. And if you do tend to attract bad relationships and not know how to end them, then this is the time to learn.
I wish it could be different. I know that you don't feel like you have other options for other therapists. But let's talk about that and see what could be figured out.
Maybe it's just transference (and that would mean that you would have pain, learn a lot, and get to keep seeing her)... I'm hoping for you.
Posted by kara lynne on November 9, 2003, at 2:30:42
In reply to Re: Oh man » kara lynne, posted by fallsfall on November 8, 2003, at 22:30:51
Hi falls,
Thanks for your post. What's vexing me is that she'll go out of her way sometimes--arranging this lunch on Monday for instance, in her demonstration of support for me. But she unquestionably (well ok, I can't technically be that objective) was not paying attention last week, and forgot entirely the day before. I mean she sat there talking about the people outside and skimmed right past what she was supposed to be reading that I had handed her. It's happened a couple of other times--one incident was particularly disturbing. And that one resulted directly from the dual relationship you mentioned; she allowed herself behavior I'm sure she wouldn't have with someone else. I certainly have had transference issues come up in the past, and we have been able to clear them up. I brought up her forgetting the appt. to try to clear more of them up. But this brings awkward to new dimensions for me--to have to confront her about such an embarassing lapse of conduct. I think it will make her uncomfortable, and she might deny it.It's just so strange--she screwed up, and it seemed like she was trying to do damage control. She left a couple of suspicious messages after she forgot the appt.; she's never done that before. I wondered, could she possibly be feeling guilty and trying to scramble around here to clean it up? And she knows I'm aware of these things, and that I'm not easily fooled. That's why I also wonder if it didn't throw her entirely off track with me the next day and have kind of a snowballing effect. She looked at me for a second, as I took the email back and said we just seemed to be missing each other, and apologized--almost like she was really embarassed herself. But I don't know how much conversation we'll be able to have about it.
I'm nervous about this meeting Monday. I feel so bad about what happened that I'm going to have a hard time pretending to be cheery and grateful, participating in a lunch arranged to help me out. And I have mixed feelings about starting to see people at her office, although I'm in no postion to look a gift horse in the mouth--wherever in he*l that expression came from.
I'm really tired--I'm going to stop writing until I have some rest and can form complete sentences without having to think this hard.
Hope to talk to you tomorrow.
Posted by fallsfall on November 9, 2003, at 9:13:40
In reply to Re: Oh man/ fallsfall, posted by kara lynne on November 9, 2003, at 2:30:42
Kara,
It sort of sounds to me like she was having a bad couple of days. She forgot your appointment, and she said that "the energy had been thick ALL DAY". That means it wasn't just you. Maybe there was something going on in her personal life that was distracting for her. They are people, too. They try not to be distracted, but sometimes that is really not possible.
You said: "to have to confront her about such an embarassing lapse of conduct. I think it will make her uncomfortable, and she might deny it. "
They are supposed to be able to be open and honest about these things. One thing they try to teach us is that it IS OK to make mistakes and that it is OK to admit them and go on. The book I'm reading now (see link below) calls these "optimal failures" (see section V, http://www.selfpsychology.com/papers/wolf_1999.htm for a description of optimal failures). In essence, it means that there is a certain frustration/failure level that is tolerable by the client that leads to the development of a stronger self (Kohut says that these failures "lead to the establishment of internal structures"). So Kohut is saying that these frustration/failure incidents are actually what allows the patient to grow. (He also says that the therapist doesn't need to artificially construct these - that the therapist's imperfections will generate quite enough).
If she is good, and from what you have said I think she is, she will not just deny it, but will help you use the situation for your growth.
As I read more, I become more convinced that it is in the situations where we are uncomfortable talking to our therapists because our therapist IS the problem, when we really MUST talk to our therapist. This is the only situation I know of where you can be totally honest about the relationship and find out what is really going on. In a normal relationship you could NOT say "You forgot me and I am hurt" (well, I guess you could, but it would be uncomfortable for me). In a theraputic relationship that is what you are SUPPOSED to say.
You said in your first post: "But this is troubling me, and all the more troubling because she would be the person I would be talking about this kind of thing to, but it's about her so I can't."
My point is that it is incorrect to say that you "can't", because this is the time when you SHOULD talk to her.
This lunch on Monday is not about you and your counselor. It is about you and the professional woman. It is a chance to find out what you need to do, and what works about setting up your business. Your counselor is just part of the furnishings (along with the restaurant and table) that make the meeting possible. Try to take advantage of the opportunity on Monday.
(For those interested in Kohut's Psychology of the Self, I recommend "The Restoration of the Self". I find that the Psychology of the Self makes more sense to me than either the strict Freud stuff (somehow I can't believe that everything has to do with sex) or CBT (where you just wish things to be different and therefore they are different). I'm just getting started learning about this new viewpoint, but so far it seems to make more sense.)
Posted by kara lynne on November 9, 2003, at 15:36:27
In reply to Re: Oh man » kara lynne, posted by fallsfall on November 9, 2003, at 9:13:40
Hi fallsfall,
Ok I'm still absorbing what you've written, but I wanted to say in the meantime--I've been thinking about *how* to bring it up. I've done it before, but this seems more dangerous and I'm not sure why. She is human and she does make mistakes. But is she going to be aware of her motivation behind forgetting appts. (a couple of weeks ago but she was in the office and I reminded her), missing one altogether and then zoning out when we do meet? I guess I'm asking--if we can all agree that our therapists are imperfect, how can we rely on them to have an accurate assessment of their blind spots?I don't want to approach her in a way that makes her defensive, but it seems almost impossible to avoid. I know, stick with the 'I's'...I flinched a little when you forgot but I didn't take it personally. When you forgot entirely I tried hard not to take it personally but it was hard (and then do I mention the calls that I felt were such obvious 'oops' calls?). But when we did meet and you were more interested in what was going on in the hallway than what we were talking about I was beyond hurt into humiliated. It makes me think you consider what I have to say unimportant or annoying...blah blah. And then what, she's going to admit it? 'Yes, actually I do think you're boring and stupid'. Well what if she did for a minute? And I picked up something accurate but something that no-one could ever really admit to?
Ok, gonna go absorb more--and write you later.
I really appreciate what you've given me to take into consideration here.
Posted by fallsfall on November 9, 2003, at 20:13:26
In reply to Re: Oh man/ fallsfall, posted by kara lynne on November 9, 2003, at 15:36:27
She's going to say "I was having a personal crisis, and you happened to see me twice during my crisis. I try very hard not to let my crises affect my work, but sometimes I'm not as successful as I want to be. There is no excuse for me to miss your appointment. I try very hard to make sure that never happens. But this time it did happen, and you were hurt, and I'm sorry that you were hurt - it was never my intention to hurt you. I will redouble my efforts to see that I don't forget your (or anyone else's) appointment again. I hope that you can forgive me for my mistake.
I was distracted also during your last session. I was listening to the conversations in the hallway because I was hoping to hear news about my crisis. This, too, is not acceptable behavior, and again, I apologize to you. Please know that I am interested in what you have to say, and that I try to understand you so that I can help you better.
I hope that you can understand that my behavior was not a reaction to you - it was a reaction to things in my personal life. I understand, though, that you may continue to feel angry and hurt - and it would be quite reasonable for you to feel that way. If you do continue feeling badly about this, I hope that you will talk about it with me. Talking about these kinds of things are an important part of the therapy process. If you were feeling badly, but we didn't talk about it then it might affect the therapy (I might not be able to help you as much). I don't want that to happen.
I am human, and I do make mistakes. These issues were mistakes, and I do apologize for them."
HOWEVER
If she was *really* unhappy with you, then she would tell you that a particular behavior of yours was making it hard for her to concentrate on what you are saying, and maybe help you figure out how not to do whatever that is.
If she felt that you *were* boring, then she might say that she wondered why you were talking about what you were talking about. And ask you to explain why this is an important topic for you (since if she saw this as an important topic then it wouldn't be boring to her).
Supposedly, if they don't like us they can still help us. So "liking" or "not liking" isn't really an issue.
If she felt that she couldn't help you anymore, then she should refer you to someone else who can help you.
THE BOTTOM LINE
She wouldn't be employing you, offering you space in her office for your practice, introducing you to the other lady at lunch on Monday if she didn't want you to succeed. It is quite reasonable for you to be hurt, but if you understood that she was sorry that you were hurt - that she didn't mean to hurt you - could you accept her apology and trust that she is *trying* to look out for your best interest?
Posted by kara lynne on November 9, 2003, at 23:34:31
In reply to Re: Oh man » kara lynne, posted by fallsfall on November 9, 2003, at 20:13:26
I guess I could if I didn't attach too much meaning to the events, which I tend to do. And if she deals with me honestly about it. I'm going to try to separate myself from it as much as possible tomorrow and just 'do lunch'. Hopefully I'll be more sure of my next step after seeing how things go.
Wish me luck!
And thank you.
Posted by fallsfall on November 10, 2003, at 22:40:45
In reply to Re: Oh man, posted by kara lynne on November 9, 2003, at 23:34:31
Posted by kara lynne on November 11, 2003, at 13:57:05
In reply to So. How was lunch? (nm) » kara lynne, posted by fallsfall on November 10, 2003, at 22:40:45
Lunch was ok; pretty unremarkable. But I have to go into work right now and I still don't know how to handle what happened last week. At some point I'll have to talk about it, but it feels too threatening now. I'm going to have to say something because I woudn't feel comfortable starting to see clients there like this. Trying to think what I'm afraid of--that she'll pooh pooh the whole thing. I guess that's a big fear--that someone is not up front with me and I have to discern the subtext for my own safety.
I woke up feeling like there was really not one person I could completely trust or count on in my entire life. I trust you, but I mean someone involved in my day to day life. It really sucketh.
The ex left a message last night about a stray cat that he's adopted. He calls to talk about the cat and includes me as an afterthought. I don't even know how to respond. He said 'I wonder if you're ever going to call me again. It would be nice to know'. Can you say passive?
Posted by fallsfall on November 11, 2003, at 22:15:09
In reply to Re: So. How was lunch?, posted by kara lynne on November 11, 2003, at 13:57:05
Give me his phone number. I'll call and tell him "No. She's not calling you again". It won't even be an expensive phone call - short and sweet.
Posted by kara lynne on November 12, 2003, at 1:14:05
In reply to Re: So. How was lunch? » kara lynne, posted by fallsfall on November 11, 2003, at 22:15:09
falls I know this isn't the right board but I'm really losing it tonight. He left a message I got on the way home from dinner (an ordeal in itself), telling me he really needed someone around him who loves him, so he's taking in this cat. Then he put the cat to the phone so I could hear her purr.
What is he doing? Can you tell me? I almost got the nerve up to call him and tell me his calls are just hurting me and to stop. But I couldn't.
He is insulting me, isn't he? He is offering me nothing, and telling me about a relationship he's forming with a cat.
And still I can't let go.
Posted by fallsfall on November 12, 2003, at 22:17:45
In reply to Re: So. How was lunch?, posted by kara lynne on November 12, 2003, at 1:14:05
This is the end of the thread.
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