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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Dinah on March 4, 2005, at 11:39:01
In reply to Re: Losing Control » Toph, posted by Susan47 on March 4, 2005, at 10:28:13
Susan, don't answer this if you're feeling better and want to move on. But I'm not really clear what happened. You went to his office yesterday?
Posted by Susan47 on March 4, 2005, at 12:56:53
In reply to Re: Losing Control » Susan47, posted by Dinah on March 4, 2005, at 11:39:01
I was trying to write up a resume for class, Dinah, and it was really frightening me, I needed comfort and I'm a loner so I've been closeted up since my trip on the weekend, I have a lot of fears. So all day I was fighting the urge, fighting the urge to see him, he has such a lovely face, you know, it's so terribly beautiful. It affects me like I cannot describe to anyone, oh no one. I hope I don't sound crazy. I've just never felt this way before and it's so surprising, it's still so surprising, you know?
I don't know it was late in the day and I was so panicked, and I'd been getting up and sitting down and doing a few words, wandering aimlessly about, not understanding anything about myself.
And he was a person who'd brought me some clarity, you know? And his face, you'd have to know someone like him to understand. Well, I fought the urge but suddenly I was putting on my shoes and grabbing my purse and then I was down there, and feeling really scared but fighting that feeling because I wanted to know what causes this, what causes this need to be here?
Posted by Susan47 on March 4, 2005, at 13:05:17
In reply to Re: Losing Control » Susan47, posted by Dinah on March 4, 2005, at 11:39:01
I got there and he was in session with a man, another man who also had a beautiful voice, and you cannot imagine how lovely it was to sit there in the outer office and hear the two voices mingling. I felt so happy and at peace. I want to cry, there's tears here at my eyes just remembering looking at the Monet print that-needs-dusting, and listening to them, and feeling calm and happy and okay. My ex-T has such a soothing, caring voice, it's hard to believe. My new T says he has some lovely qualities that make him a very good therapist, and she's right, and she agreed with me when I told her I believe he'd never hurt a woman, ever. So I know I'm right about him.
Well I left and nobody would've known I was there, and I had work that had to be done for class that night and I already knew I wouldn't have the assignment done anyways. So I left and went into a bakery nearby and spent some money and came back because I couldn't, I just didn't want to leave, I wanted him nearby me. So of course I did the dumbest thing which was the thing I knew I shouldn't be doing, I went and there he was sitting there and looking awful, just awful because he's wearing that grey shirt again, the expensive one that I hate it looks so cold, he looks cold in that. Very sophisticated, very cold. Oh yes.
And he acted just like his shirt.
Posted by Susan47 on March 4, 2005, at 14:03:22
In reply to Re: Losing Control, posted by Susan47 on March 4, 2005, at 13:05:17
And Dinah, if you're still reading at this point, I went and had a tantrum and stomped out and because I'm german maybe, I went in there today like a madchen (how do you get those umlauts on things?) what don't I know, what do I know. Asked if he'd read this, he said yes, you can leave it, I tossed it on the counter and as I walked out I said, Sorry about yesterday and he said, oh, that's okay or some such thing, in a kind of wondering, hm voice, like okay now I know this side of her, uh huh I've seen that before and I kind of like it. That really really bugs me. I just want to be liked all the time. I'm a big bawling f*cking infant.
Posted by Susan47 on March 4, 2005, at 14:05:56
In reply to Re: Losing Control, posted by Susan47 on March 4, 2005, at 14:03:22
And if ANYBODY is still reading at this point, I just want to mention he wears glasses, I saw him in glasses today for the first time and he looks even better than without ... sheesh. How much are we girls supposed to be able to stand????
Posted by Dinah on March 4, 2005, at 14:18:43
In reply to Re: Losing Control, posted by Susan47 on March 4, 2005, at 14:03:22
What had happened yesterday that you apologized for?
And how would you have liked him to react? If you were putting together a top notch perfect therapist, and given the same circumstances, how do you think a perfect therapist would react?
Posted by Susan47 on March 4, 2005, at 16:38:51
In reply to Re: Losing Control » Susan47, posted by Dinah on March 4, 2005, at 14:18:43
I apologized because I said to him yesterday thathe was making me feel like a stalker, you know, like I had to come back and say, "Well, I was here, now you know just so you don't suspect I come at any other time" because I suspect truly that he thinks I have nothing better to do, or because he's prejudiced against me because of all the neediness and phoning I did. But he never actually stopped me until I told him to. That is just so weird, the whole thing is more than weird, it's double triple weird. But I think he also didn't want to hurt my confidence, and maybe he couldn't let me know how caring he really was, because then I would be afraid of that, too.
Dinah, does any of this make any sense at all? Because I can stop if it doesn't. I don't want to confuse you or anyone.
Posted by Dinah on March 4, 2005, at 18:35:02
In reply to Re: Losing Control, posted by Susan47 on March 4, 2005, at 16:38:51
No, Susan. It's making sense.
I know you went to his office because you were hoping for something from him, and I was wondering what that something was. And I was wondering what it would have looked like for him to give it. And I was wondering what you thought the proper course of action for a therapist might be under those circumstances. Which are, if I'm correct, coming out of a session and finding a former client in his waiting room?
Susan, I'm afraid you're going to incur further pain by continuing to contact him. I know that my therapist would be angry if I, even as a current client, showed up at his office without an appointment. He doesn't consider his waiting room a public place, exactly. He is concerned about how the behavior of one client affects other clients and his suitemates.
And Susan, in the past there have been posters who have had to bear more than their therapist's anger. Restraining orders and the like.
I am just worried for you, perhaps without cause. And I know that it's your choice, your life, and you know best what you need and what you're willing to chance. But I just wonder if you, and your present therapist, and maybe some of us here, couldn't put our heads together and try to find out what need you are trying to meet, and how it might best be met at the least pain to you.
Again, perhaps I'm worrying without cause. If so, please disregard this post.
Posted by Toph on March 6, 2005, at 7:54:09
In reply to Re: Losing Control » Toph, posted by Susan47 on March 4, 2005, at 10:28:13
Susan,
I feel terrible that I didn't respond to your reply to me. You disclosed some really important information to which I should have responded. I'm so sorry. It is no excuse that Dinah picked up the ball and was there for you. I'm so scattered sometimes.
I hope it's not too late to ask, these rapes to which you refer, are they psychic rapes like when a person takes every emotion that you can offer and then violates you by walking away satisfied in receiving a narcissism fix without having to return anything in kind? Or were these rapes of the criminal sexual assault kind. As a man, I'm not sure which is worse, though I can relate better to the former.
Again, susan, I am ashamed that you opened up and I was looking away. Had it been me ignored, I would have been really hurt.Toph
Posted by Susan47 on March 6, 2005, at 11:28:29
In reply to Re: Losing Control » Susan47, posted by Dinah on March 4, 2005, at 18:35:02
I'm going to reply now to your post. I didn't earlier because it made me feel a bit angry. My ex-t and I'm going to refer to him now as C, because I can't say ex- anymore without feeling bereft and sad. C told me near the beginning of the therapeutic relationship, when I disclosed that I felt a need to be closer to him, to feel his presence when I needed comfort, that it was okay to sit in his outer office pretty much as needed. He did welcome me to do that, verbally. The kind man went so far as to tell me what his office hours were, and to explain that sometimes he counselled clients in their homes so he wouldn't always be there. He was so very very kind. I remember his voice, telling me those things. And what I did when he told me and made me feel welcome, is that even though the urge was strong still, very strong, I replaced the coming to his office mainly with phoning his answering machine. It was terrible. To the point that if he answered, I would ask if I could talk to the machine. And he would always allow that. He was so kind. He knew I was afraid of him. I loved him so very very much and I was so terribly afraid of him, because of my love. It was a replay of my relationship with my father, I really didn't realize that.
I don't feel guilty about going to his office. I've been four times in the last six weeks. And in the whole year I think I've been there less than a dozen times. He knows, and I specifically made sure he knew the last couple of times, and I told him once I went in and spent some time pruning his plants, making them spiffy. Once I went in and washed off his fake plant as well. It made me feel calm and happy to do something kind in return for all the kindness he's shown me. I would go in and clean his bathrooms and do all his housework if he'd let me. He's simply a wonderful person; when he wants to be. He's been cold lately, very very cold, I guess he wants me to move on. But I think something I did, I think the whole relationship we had, was hurtful to him, and I feel so incredibly sh*tty about that, I want to let go of that pain, that pain of lost opportunity, that here was a beautiful person I loved so very much and hurt and lost because I was acting out of old pain, I never knew the satisfaction of being truly known and accepted, and the pain is so great, so very very great. I can't even describe it, but other people here who've communicated with me, they know it and understand it. People who've been through hell as well.
I don't think he'd purposely hurt me. Some of the things he's done have hurt me, but I think he did them thinking they'd help me move on, and perhaps they have. Now I know I can never see him again, because he'll be cold and rejecting.. but I don't honestly think he would do anything to embarrass me, as you're suggesting, because I think he understands the essence of my pain, if not the pain itself. And I believe he's a compassionate person.
Posted by Susan47 on March 6, 2005, at 11:40:50
In reply to Re: Losing Control » Susan47, posted by Toph on March 6, 2005, at 7:54:09
Dear Toph,
The rapes were real. They were real physical, "I'm going to have you" rapes. And I want to tell you right now, Toph, that both types of rape you refer to go hand-in-hand; they cannot be separated when there's a physical rape.Asd for those rapes, I'd blocked them out and taken responsibility for them all these years, even though in my head I'd said "He Raped me" I knew that, my heart said "You allowed it". They were much bigger, much stronger, and ruthless, but I still felt on a level that I'd allowed it. Perhaps the shame of those false feelings caused me more pain than I'm aware of.
I'm sorry to the people who've read my threads and felt angst, and had to go away, or cried, because of anything I've said. I'm really sorry to dump my sadness and my grief and all the physical stuff here. It's the only outlet I have, between T appointments. I used to call C's machine and say stuff into it, intense stuff that was too much for me to bear, I couldn't carry it, Would You Please PLEASE PLEASE CARRY this Burden for Me for Awhile????
I Suddenly know, NOW I SUDDENLY REALIZE WHY I WAS PHONING!!!!
I'm sorry I shouted but my God, what I just understand ...
Posted by Susan47 on March 6, 2005, at 11:51:30
In reply to Re: Losing Control » Toph, posted by Susan47 on March 6, 2005, at 11:40:50
I feel guilty because I know I was asking him to carry a burden.
And I believe he did carry it.
And I believe that the carrying hurt him.
It hurt him more than it did me.
And he asked me to start carrying some of the load.
But I wasn't ready, I wanted to hurt him
Because I was jealous of him, his happiness.
I wanted his happiness.
I raped him, I raped HIM!!!
It was my revenge.
I took it all out on him, and he was so incredibly beautiful.
And finally, he had to put down the load.
But I wasn't ready.
And now I may be.
Now, thanks to his silence, his loving ways,
Perhaps he's taught me more than I realize...
By he being him, and me being me,
and his wanting and hoping for the best,
and my wanting so very much, in the end, to please him,
because I did love and respect him, him more than anyone....
How beautiful can a person be?
I love him, but it's not a hopeless love.
It's a love that fills me ...
Posted by pinkeye on March 6, 2005, at 12:33:44
In reply to Re: Losing Control, posted by Susan47 on March 6, 2005, at 11:51:30
It is very humanly impossible for any person to carry on other's burdens - even if it is a therapist and highly qualified. They can only help you see things differently, but they cannot carry our load themselves. if they do that, they will collapse.. And that is not the way God designed this world. All of us have to carry our burdens by ourselves, and maximum we can do, is lean on someone for a little while..
People can help us, but they cannot really feel the pain that we are going through. I realized that with my medical condition. As much as a person loves me, they cannot take the pain away from me, and they cannot feel the pain for me. Only God can go to that extent of feeling the pain for me - not any human. That is why I developed a trust in God and that helped me see things in a different light. I tried to lean more on God and less on other humans, because everyone around is me as suffering as me.
So you have to help yourselves the best. Try to lighten the load as much as possible for the person who is trying to help you, and you will be successful. In ohter words, try to help the person who is helping you and that will help you more. Treat your therapist more gently than you would treat a baby, and go beyond your capability to help them help you, because they are sticking out everything to help you. Even if they are trained, they are basically just human beings, and nobody is that strong in this world. In all likelihood, they are just as frail as you are, and as weak and as troubled with perhaps even more issues. Only that they offer to go beyond themselves to help other people through inspite of their weakness and pain in their personal lives.
If it sounds little preaching, do forgive me for the choice of words. I don't know how to word it in a better way. And little preaching won't hurt anyway. Sometimes we all need that.
Posted by Toph on March 6, 2005, at 14:12:46
In reply to Re: Losing Control » Toph, posted by Susan47 on March 6, 2005, at 11:40:50
Susan, I confess that I can only imagine the violation of rape, and I have struggled to understand your obsession with your ex-T, but is it possible that the rapes that you experienced left a gaping hole/wound in your psyche (soul, self, I'm not sure of the correct word) that was later filled by you ex-T (theory also calls this the T lending his ego)? Then when you terminated with him, you hadn't replaced the internal support that he provided with your own healed self/ego, so that when he was gone the hole/wound reopened?
Did that question make any sense?
Posted by Susan47 on March 6, 2005, at 14:23:00
In reply to Re: Losing Control » Susan47, posted by pinkeye on March 6, 2005, at 12:33:44
You know what I love about you, Pinkeye? It's one of the things I really like about, is that you're very literal.
I used to be very literal too. There's more the words than I think you're seeing, and that's okay, because you're you and I'm me. Take care, and thank you for your thoughts. If I were being literal, I would agree with you.
Posted by Susan47 on March 6, 2005, at 14:24:07
In reply to Re: Losing Control » Susan47, posted by Toph on March 6, 2005, at 14:12:46
Oh yes. Absolutely. I've never heard of the term lending the ego. Where'd you learn that?
Posted by pinkeye on March 6, 2005, at 14:55:02
In reply to Re: Losing Control, posted by Susan47 on March 6, 2005, at 14:23:00
> You know what I love about you, Pinkeye? It's one of the things I really like about, is that you're very literal.
> I used to be very literal too. There's more the words than I think you're seeing, and that's okay, because you're you and I'm me. Take care, and thank you for your thoughts. If I were being literal, I would agree with you.
I am not sure I understand what you mean by being literal, but if it helps you, that is fine.
Pinkeye.
Posted by Toph on March 6, 2005, at 17:13:26
In reply to Re: Losing Control, posted by Susan47 on March 6, 2005, at 14:24:07
> Oh yes. Absolutely. I've never heard of the term lending the ego. Where'd you learn that?
If I really learned it well I could tell you more about it. I'm pretty sure it was in an ego psychology course I took fromm "Carolyn Saari" in grad school. It's a good metephor for a therapist lending their ego to bolster an injured patient. I hope you new T has some to loan.
Posted by Dinah on March 6, 2005, at 19:31:05
In reply to Re: Losing Control » Dinah, posted by Susan47 on March 6, 2005, at 11:28:29
I'm sorry you felt angry. It wasn't my intention to make you feel angry or to be at all judgemental. I was just concerned. I've just seen some unpleasant outcomes hanging around Babble.
If he has said he doesn't mind, or if he hasn't said to stop it, I suppose that it's ok.
I had just gotten the impression that he was getting increasingly cold and perhaps angry, but that was my impression from what you said. I have no external information, and may well have misunderstood what you said.
Posted by alexandra_k on March 6, 2005, at 19:53:51
In reply to Re: Losing Control » Dinah, posted by Susan47 on March 6, 2005, at 11:28:29
> C told me ... that it was okay to sit in his outer office pretty much as needed. He did welcome me to do that, verbally.
Ah, that makes sense.
> I replaced the coming to his office mainly with phoning his answering machine.
Ah. Well, that makes more sense now too.
>To the point that if he answered, I would ask if I could talk to the machine.
Ha! Oh Susan, that made me laugh! In a good way. I can just imagine it 'please can you hang up the phone, I was hoping to hear your answer phone'. Kind of backwards. But yes, that makes sense.
>And he would always allow that.
Ok.
> I don't think he'd purposely hurt me.
No, I don't think he would either.
>Some of the things he's done have hurt me, but I think he did them thinking they'd help me move on, and perhaps they have.
Yeah. It helps to know WHY though, doesn't it. If only they could explain it sometimes...
>Now I know I can never see him again, because he'll be cold and rejecting..
Yup.
Not to hurt - but to try to help you move on.
Posted by alexandra_k on March 6, 2005, at 20:01:46
In reply to Re: Losing Control, posted by Susan47 on March 6, 2005, at 11:51:30
>I'm sorry to the people who've read my threads and felt angst, and had to go away, or cried, because of anything I've said.
In my own case I have to say: Thats okay Susan. You help me. You help me feel less alone. You help me too, see?
>I'm really sorry to dump my sadness and my grief and all the physical stuff here. It's the only outlet I have, between T appointments.
Yeah. I can dump a bit too. Because there isn't anywhere else for me to do that.
>I used to call C's machine and say stuff into it, intense stuff that was too much for me to bear, I couldn't carry it, Would You Please PLEASE PLEASE CARRY this Burden for Me for Awhile????
>I Suddenly know, NOW I SUDDENLY REALIZE WHY I WAS PHONING!!!!
YAY!
> I feel guilty because I know I was asking him to carry a burden.
> And I believe he did carry it.
> And I believe that the carrying hurt him.It is hard to see another person in such pain and feel powerless to be able to do anything to help. That can wear you out...
> It hurt him more than it did me.Something I have had to learn how to do is to look after my therapists. By thanking them. Telling them how much they mean to me. Telling them when I am feeling a bit better. That kind of thing. I don't know if that is part of it for you or not... But I needed a t to show me how to look after t's. To help them not burn out. But I haven't learned that lesson well
:-(
:-(
I don't know what I'm saying here...> And he asked me to start carrying some of the load.
> But I wasn't ready, I wanted to hurt him
> Because I was jealous of him, his happiness.
> I wanted his happiness.
> I raped him, I raped HIM!!!
> It was my revenge.
> I took it all out on him, and he was so incredibly beautiful.
> And finally, he had to put down the load.
> But I wasn't ready.Oh Susan.
> And now I may be.
Can you tell your new t about this?
Maybe show her a couple of your posts??
> By he being him, and me being me,
> and his wanting and hoping for the best,
> and my wanting so very much, in the end, to please him,
> because I did love and respect him, him more than anyone....
> How beautiful can a person be?Yeah Susan.
Not all guys are like those horrible pigs who used and abused you so. Not all of them. There are decent people in the world. C was one. And there will be others in your life. Maybe you do need to learn how to care for them...How are you feeling today?
Posted by alexandra_k on March 6, 2005, at 20:02:46
In reply to Re: Losing Control » Susan47, posted by Dinah on March 6, 2005, at 19:31:05
(((Dinah)))
I was wondering the same thing...
(About the restraining order)
I had those same worries.
I would have said that if you hadn't.
Posted by Dinah on March 6, 2005, at 20:07:03
In reply to Re: Losing Control » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on March 6, 2005, at 20:02:46
Thanks Alexandra. Yeah, it's happened twice on Babble that I recall. Unless my brain is totally going. I think one was a male client and female therapist, I can't recall about the other. The sexes involved might make a difference.
Posted by alexandra_k on March 6, 2005, at 20:20:13
In reply to Re: Losing Control » alexandra_k, posted by Dinah on March 6, 2005, at 20:07:03
Yeah.
I guess it also depends on whether the order is a 'self protection' thing or a 'harrassment' thing.I don't think Susan's t would like to do that...
But he might get to that point over time...Hmm.
I am remembering that the only time I have had thoughts about hurting another (not urges but fairly intense fantasies) was after a certain therapist terminated me... Luckily for the both of us she is in a different building from the other people I have seen / do see. Haven't seen her since. But I have to admit that I think I'd get a distinct urge to pop her in the face if I ever ran into her in person...Yuk
yuk
I'll just forget about that now...
Posted by pinkeye on March 6, 2005, at 21:23:47
In reply to Re: Losing Control » Dinah, posted by alexandra_k on March 6, 2005, at 20:20:13
Susan
Another thing that might help is to get on an antidepressant. When I was depressed, I found that my usual positive attitude completely wanes off, and I get more irritated with people, angry, jealous, cynical, dependant, hopeless etc. But it went away with therapy and antidepresant a while ago. Can you talk to your therapist about whether she thinks you need to be on an AntiDepressant?
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