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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 3 to 27 of 27. Go back in thread:
Posted by Tamar on September 4, 2008, at 16:04:21
In reply to Maternal transference (oh so long post), posted by onceupon on September 4, 2008, at 14:20:06
Ah, those deep longings are so hard to deal with, aren't they? And I know they can be a source of embarrassment, and it always seems like such a shame that people should feel embarrassed about wanting to be mothered.
I often wonder if that sense of embarrassment is part of the transference. I mean, people with crappy mothers are embarrassed about wanting to find maternal comfort because in their own childhood their mothers have responded as if it were inappropriate for them to want it. If your mother had usually given you comfort when you wanted it as a child, you might not feel so embarrassed about the times when you want it as an adult.
I wish I had some helpful things to say about your feeling that your therapist drops those discussions. I experienced something similar early in my work with my therapist, and in response to his apparent reluctance I avoided the topic he seemed to be avoiding... for more than two years. When I did eventually start talking about it he was clearly surprised, so it didn't seem to have occurred to him. And on reflection I wish I had found a way to talk to him about it sooner.
But my experience involves a different topic, a different therapist, and a different client! The only thing I can say for sure is that therapy is supposed to be a place where we can talk about our scariest feelings in a place of safety. So I really hope your therapist will be able to hear what you need to say and respond gently and sensitively.
Posted by Annierose on September 4, 2008, at 16:04:39
In reply to Maternal transference (oh so long post), posted by onceupon on September 4, 2008, at 14:20:06
I imagine your therapist would like to help you with these feelings. They are natural in a close therapeutic relationship. Try not to be hard on yourself.
Instead of framing your feelings as trying to "get over" think of wanting to work through them with your therapist. Most therapist expect these types of feelings to be brought into the room. Make peace with these feelings. They are full of love.
I agree knowing your t is friends with one of your co-workers would be difficult. I'm not sure how I would handle that ... from a co-worker perspective.
Becoming a mom brings so many new feelings to the surface. For me it made me more angry with my mother, realizing how un-motherly she was. It's something I continue to struggle with 5 years of therapy later.
Posted by catlady on September 4, 2008, at 20:44:15
In reply to Maternal transference (oh so long post), posted by onceupon on September 4, 2008, at 14:20:06
I just want you to know I understand exactly what you are going through. I am going through the same thing, and it is hard. My therapist I had before this one was kind of mothering. I used to long for the hugs I got from her. Now I am working with a different therapist who is not so mothering. I find myself missing the mothering I got from the therapist I had before. I feel like crying because I miss it so much. It really sucks that a person didn't get those needs met in childhood because it is hard to meet those needs as an adult. That is one of the things I started to work on with this therapist. I hope this helps knowing that you aren't alone with those feelings. I did bring up my feelings about wanting to be mothered with both of my therapists I had. I know it is hard, but it seemed to help.
Posted by lucie lu on September 4, 2008, at 21:08:31
In reply to Maternal transference (oh so long post), posted by onceupon on September 4, 2008, at 14:20:06
Once,
Your longings resonate within me and many others, I suspect. It is so hard to face neediness and vulnerability inside ourselves. We pretend that the longings aren't there but they can eat away at you, forcing you to pay attention.
Early on in therapy it seemed to me that my longings for my T were more or less a side effect of treatment. My view was that I would go to his office and get "therapized," and any pain associated with the therapy itself (i.e. the longings) which started hurting after I left his office - well, those I thought were my problem to bear alone. For quite a while, they were just something I never discussed, never even thought of discussing, and I was way too embarrassed about them to bring them up during the hour.
What broke the logjam for me was journaling, when I brought something in about the feelings he engendered in me. It was 3rd person, not like a Valentine or anything, written in journal style but it got the message across. He seemed really touched. After that, my longings, my loving feelings, my hurts (many seemed to me very childish but they really hurt all the same)all could be brought openly into therapy. It just took that one act to get things started. Maybe you can try something similar with your T.
One of the surprises of therapy is that those longings that we try so hard to keep concealed and disowned are not side effects but actually the heart of the therapy. The longings represent places where we have been hurt. In therapy, those longings and other deep feelings should get taken out and, gently and carefully, examined to see where the hurt lies and how it might be repaired. So feeling bad and embarrassed for having those feelings is counter-productive as it serves to keep those deeper feelings hidden and out of the light of day and they can't be examined to help you heal.
In short, try to accept the longings for what they are, accept that they are painful but they are also helpful in locating where the hurt is and what needs to be healed in you.
I hope you can talk with your T soon, it sounds like you are hurting and need to focus some work on healing in that area.
Take care of yourself, and lots of hugs to you.
((((((((((( Once ))))))))))))))Wishing you all the best, Lucie
Posted by TherapyGirl on September 4, 2008, at 21:18:40
In reply to Maternal transference (oh so long post), posted by onceupon on September 4, 2008, at 14:20:06
Yep. Been there, done that. It does get better once you somehow get your needs met. Maybe from your T, maybe internally, maybe from someone else, maybe through some combination of the above. You described all of it beautifully in your post. Could you think about taking that in to your T to help start the discussion? I think this happens often, so I'd be surprised if she wasn't prepared to discuss it.
My T is on leave for 6-8 weeks right now due to a family crisis. Surprisingly, I'm doing okay. In the past, I would have completely fallen apart. But today has been 3 weeks since I've seen her and I'm really, really doing okay.
You will be okay, too.
Posted by lemonaide on September 5, 2008, at 8:22:39
In reply to Maternal transference (oh so long post), posted by onceupon on September 4, 2008, at 14:20:06
Hi onceupon,
I think knowing what you are missing in your life is a huge progress in therapy. Maybe you are looking for it with others, but I think that is only normal. Don't we all want to be loved, hugged, and wrapped up in a blanket to keep warm and protected? I do, I know. I wish my T could be my father sometimes, he has 6 kids what is one more? I just wonder if we can ever get that need met in real life.
I guess maybe we need to learn how to comfort ourselves, which is odd to say because kids who had good parents know how to do this. It is like they don't need their parents like they did when they were younger because of the good job the parent did.
But it is the ones like us who didn't have that comfort, that still long for it even as an adult.
I am still trying to work out all of this too, these are just some misc. ideas I am thinking about it. I hope it was okay to write this.
Posted by onceupon on September 5, 2008, at 8:50:07
In reply to Re: Maternal transference (oh so long post), posted by sassyfrancesca on September 4, 2008, at 15:26:17
> Oh, I understand. Feelings are facts...they are not....right or wrong....they just are; and should be honored an validated.
Thanks, sassyfrancesca. I keep trying to remind myself of this, but it's hard to hold onto sometimes, you know?
> I am 61 years old (still feeling like a teenager), and had an abusive mother (never knew my father), so I was abandoned emotionally by a mother, and physically by a father.
>
> It is natural to want what we never had, and t's are (or should be) trained to understand all of that. Perhaps you could write a letter to your mother about all of your thoughts and feelings, etc.......send or don't send with the help/advice of your t.I did write a letter to my mom years ago, and gave it to her, but found talking about it (or not talking about it, as it were) excruciating. But maybe this is a good time to revisit this idea.
> My t told me that my "friends have become my family." That is true; I share my life with them......Yeah, the family I married into (i.e., my husband and son) are my family now.
> I think as much/or as more talking you do with your t on your feelings, etc.......that will help.
>
> Feelings are facts.....
>
> Hugs, SassyThanks :)
Posted by onceupon on September 5, 2008, at 8:55:48
In reply to Re: Maternal transference (oh so long post) » onceupon, posted by Tamar on September 4, 2008, at 16:04:21
> Ah, those deep longings are so hard to deal with, aren't they? And I know they can be a source of embarrassment, and it always seems like such a shame that people should feel embarrassed about wanting to be mothered.
>
> I often wonder if that sense of embarrassment is part of the transference. I mean, people with crappy mothers are embarrassed about wanting to find maternal comfort because in their own childhood their mothers have responded as if it were inappropriate for them to want it. If your mother had usually given you comfort when you wanted it as a child, you might not feel so embarrassed about the times when you want it as an adult.
>Wow, that's a really good point. I hadn't thought of it that way before.
> I wish I had some helpful things to say about your feeling that your therapist drops those discussions. I experienced something similar early in my work with my therapist, and in response to his apparent reluctance I avoided the topic he seemed to be avoiding... for more than two years. When I did eventually start talking about it he was clearly surprised, so it didn't seem to have occurred to him. And on reflection I wish I had found a way to talk to him about it sooner.
Yeah, I'm fairly certain that I perceive a good deal of her tendency to drop the topics. When I approach them, I'm tentative and probably pretty circular in my approach. It's like I'm trying to land a plane, but there's a storm approaching, visibility is low, and my fear of not being able to safely land keeps me locked in an outer ring flight pattern - just going around and around. Maybe I need to just start using a kamikaze approach :)Once you did bring up the topics that both of you seemed to be avoiding, how did it go?
> But my experience involves a different topic, a different therapist, and a different client! The only thing I can say for sure is that therapy is supposed to be a place where we can talk about our scariest feelings in a place of safety. So I really hope your therapist will be able to hear what you need to say and respond gently and sensitively.
Thanks. She's generally pretty good at responding sensitively. I think I'm just hypersensitive to any signs that she might be feeling annoyed or bored or whatever. Sometimes it helps to think back to times when I have been able to receive her caring and compassion.Thanks for your response!
Posted by onceupon on September 5, 2008, at 9:01:31
In reply to Re: Maternal transference (oh so long post) » onceupon, posted by Annierose on September 4, 2008, at 16:04:39
> I imagine your therapist would like to help you with these feelings. They are natural in a close therapeutic relationship. Try not to be hard on yourself.
Thanks :)> Instead of framing your feelings as trying to "get over" think of wanting to work through them with your therapist. Most therapist expect these types of feelings to be brought into the room. Make peace with these feelings. They are full of love.
This brought tears to my eyes. You're right - they are full of love. I keep seeing them as pathological, but maybe they demonstrate my capacity to love too.
> I agree knowing your t is friends with one of your co-workers would be difficult. I'm not sure how I would handle that ... from a co-worker perspective.My coworker doesn't know that I'm seeing my therapist. I've debated telling her (so that I could worry less about her finding out somehow), and think she would actually be fine with it, but I keep coming back to wanting to keep my professional self at work and my therapy self in therapy.
> Becoming a mom brings so many new feelings to the surface. For me it made me more angry with my mother, realizing how un-motherly she was. It's something I continue to struggle with 5 years of therapy later.
Yes. I've experienced both anger and empathy for my mom. She had four young kids at home by herself and I think that alone would have made me crazy. But she was cruel too and I hope to never inflict the same cruelties on my son - either through acts of commission or acts of omission.
I'm curious if it feels like the struggle has shifted for you throughout your time in therapy.
Thanks for your response and support.
Posted by onceupon on September 5, 2008, at 9:04:51
In reply to Re: Maternal transference (oh so long post), posted by catlady on September 4, 2008, at 20:44:15
Thanks catlady. My former therapist was more maternal too and used to hug me at the end of each session. The touch started out as painful - I think because I was so hungry for it. But ultimately, it helped me so much in feeling like a legitimate member of the human race. Not sure if that makes sense, but knowing that my therapist wasn't disgusted by me in that way helped me to dial my own self-loathing way back. But then I moved and had to find a new therapist, and here I am.
> I just want you to know I understand exactly what you are going through. I am going through the same thing, and it is hard. My therapist I had before this one was kind of mothering. I used to long for the hugs I got from her. Now I am working with a different therapist who is not so mothering. I find myself missing the mothering I got from the therapist I had before. I feel like crying because I miss it so much. It really sucks that a person didn't get those needs met in childhood because it is hard to meet those needs as an adult. That is one of the things I started to work on with this therapist. I hope this helps knowing that you aren't alone with those feelings. I did bring up my feelings about wanting to be mothered with both of my therapists I had. I know it is hard, but it seemed to help.
It helps enormously to know that I'm not alone with this. I'm glad to hear that you were able to bring up the feelings with both therapists. I'm hoping for the same courage :)
Posted by onceupon on September 5, 2008, at 9:12:03
In reply to Re: Maternal transference (oh so long post) » onceupon, posted by lucie lu on September 4, 2008, at 21:08:31
> Once,
>
> Your longings resonate within me and many others, I suspect. It is so hard to face neediness and vulnerability inside ourselves. We pretend that the longings aren't there but they can eat away at you, forcing you to pay attention.Yes! I feel like I've been forced to pay attention, despite my best efforts to ignore or downplay or dissociate away from the feelings.
> Early on in therapy it seemed to me that my longings for my T were more or less a side effect of treatment. My view was that I would go to his office and get "therapized," and any pain associated with the therapy itself (i.e. the longings) which started hurting after I left his office - well, those I thought were my problem to bear alone. For quite a while, they were just something I never discussed, never even thought of discussing, and I was way too embarrassed about them to bring them up during the hour.
Yeah, I feel the same way too. I do have other issues I'd like to be discussing in therapy :) but sometimes it's hard to focus on them when it feels like the big pink elephant is sitting in the middle of the room.
> What broke the logjam for me was journaling, when I brought something in about the feelings he engendered in me. It was 3rd person, not like a Valentine or anything, written in journal style but it got the message across. He seemed really touched. After that, my longings, my loving feelings, my hurts (many seemed to me very childish but they really hurt all the same)all could be brought openly into therapy. It just took that one act to get things started. Maybe you can try something similar with your T.Thanks for the suggestion. I haven't even considered bringing my hurts into therapy, but they're there too. And you're right, they often feel childish, but excruciating all the same. I know I need to bring this up sooner or later, because it almost feels as if I can't get anything else productive done in therapy with this "secret" sitting heavy with me.
> One of the surprises of therapy is that those longings that we try so hard to keep concealed and disowned are not side effects but actually the heart of the therapy. The longings represent places where we have been hurt. In therapy, those longings and other deep feelings should get taken out and, gently and carefully, examined to see where the hurt lies and how it might be repaired. So feeling bad and embarrassed for having those feelings is counter-productive as it serves to keep those deeper feelings hidden and out of the light of day and they can't be examined to help you
> In short, try to accept the longings for what they are, accept that they are painful but they are also helpful in locating where the hurt is and what needs to be healed in you.Like a roadmap, almost, right? That's a really good way of looking at it. I think I'm at the point of working on acceptance. I've always wanted to disown those feelings, just not have them, but of course that just causes them to rear up all the more.
> I hope you can talk with your T soon, it sounds like you are hurting and need to focus some work on healing in that area.
>
> Take care of yourself, and lots of hugs to you.
> ((((((((((( Once ))))))))))))))
>
> Wishing you all the best, LucieThanks so much for your response and support, Lucie. I see my therapist this morning, and writing this post has helped me to feel a little more courage to bring up the topic. I doubt I'll get it all out, but even opening the door seems important at this point. Thanks for the hugs, too. They mean a lot :)
Posted by onceupon on September 5, 2008, at 9:13:56
In reply to Re: Maternal transference (oh so long post) » onceupon, posted by TherapyGirl on September 4, 2008, at 21:18:40
> Yep. Been there, done that. It does get better once you somehow get your needs met. Maybe from your T, maybe internally, maybe from someone else, maybe through some combination of the above. You described all of it beautifully in your post. Could you think about taking that in to your T to help start the discussion? I think this happens often, so I'd be surprised if she wasn't prepared to discuss it.
I do like the idea of bringing something written in to my therapist. I'm just afraid she's going to make me read it out loud :)
> My T is on leave for 6-8 weeks right now due to a family crisis. Surprisingly, I'm doing okay. In the past, I would have completely fallen apart. But today has been 3 weeks since I've seen her and I'm really, really doing okay.
Good for you! I think we do surprise ourselves with our own strength sometimes. I imagine you've worked hard to get to this place.
> You will be okay, too.Thanks. I hope so :)
Posted by onceupon on September 5, 2008, at 9:18:31
In reply to Re: Maternal transference (oh so long post) » onceupon, posted by lemonaide on September 5, 2008, at 8:22:39
> Hi onceupon,
>
> I think knowing what you are missing in your life is a huge progress in therapy. Maybe you are looking for it with others, but I think that is only normal. Don't we all want to be loved, hugged, and wrapped up in a blanket to keep warm and protected? I do, I know. I wish my T could be my father sometimes, he has 6 kids what is one more? I just wonder if we can ever get that need met in real life.Heh - my therapist has two young kids. I'm imagining she might notice if I showed up on her doorstep, blanket in tow :) Thanks for the reassurance that what I'm feeling is normal.
> I guess maybe we need to learn how to comfort ourselves, which is odd to say because kids who had good parents know how to do this. It is like they don't need their parents like they did when they were younger because of the good job the parent did.
> But it is the ones like us who didn't have that comfort, that still long for it even as an adult.Yeah, I hadn't really thought about that before, but it makes good sense - kids who don't get appropriate care when they're young have the double burden of repairing past wounds and learning how to comfort themselves. This is always hard for me, because I feel like I've comforted myself forever! Of course, it hasn't always been in the most adaptive ways, but it seems like the next step on my journey is learning how to appropriately give and receive comfort from others.
> I am still trying to work out all of this too, these are just some misc. ideas I am thinking about it. I hope it was okay to write this.
Of course - I appreciate your input and support. It's always good to know that I'm not the only one struggling with something (as I often make myself believe).
Posted by raisinb on September 5, 2008, at 10:13:58
In reply to Maternal transference (oh so long post), posted by onceupon on September 4, 2008, at 14:20:06
Oh, how this resonates with me! A few months after I started seeing mine, I'd have fantasies of just being held for my entire session. Intense ones that I couldn't stop. It is very painful, and yes, it feels like something you *shouldn't* feel as an adult. I found it much easier to talk about sexual transference than this, which just seemed out of bounds, totally inappropriate. I worried I'd repulse her, make her uncomfortable, ruin our relationship. Which added a whole other level of pain to the already painful feelings of needing to be mothered.
I'd never have brought it up with my therapist unless her pregnancy had brought it to a crisis point. I should've known--she was just as sympathetic and concerned as she's always been. We haven't talked about it again, but I feel so much better now that she knows. It's possible this was my most shameful secret I kept from her.
So, in the first place, you're not alone. Second, when you're so ashamed of your feelings, it's easy to be absolutely convinced that others feel the same way. But try to have faith that your therapist does not. Dropping the discussion could be for a variety of reason, possibly including a) she senses what you're struggling with, but worries you, or the relationship, aren't ready to deal with such painful material, and she wants to get the two of you to a more solid place before going there, b) she senses your discomfort and does not want to push you, c) she's clueless and simply thinking about something else at the moment.
Sometimes I felt I was walking around with a sign saying, "I want you to be my mommy! Can I climb into your lap?" But in reality, I was very good at hiding it. And I bet you are too. You might be overcompensating, acting highly independent, even standoffish, just because you're trying to offset those feelings. And therapists aren't psychic (even though it might be nice if they were).
Your therapist has probably dealt with this stuff before. And if she truly is made uncomfortable by it, she's not the one for you to work it through with. But I doubt that's the case, honestly. Try to keep talking about it, if you can. The most painful things are often absolutely the most important.
Posted by Tamar on September 5, 2008, at 11:05:48
In reply to Re: Maternal transference (oh so long post), posted by onceupon on September 5, 2008, at 8:55:48
> Yeah, I'm fairly certain that I perceive a good deal of her tendency to drop the topics. When I approach them, I'm tentative and probably pretty circular in my approach. It's like I'm trying to land a plane, but there's a storm approaching, visibility is low, and my fear of not being able to safely land keeps me locked in an outer ring flight pattern - just going around and around. Maybe I need to just start using a kamikaze approach :)
ROFL! Yeah, the kamikaze approach might do the trick!
> Once you did bring up the topics that both of you seemed to be avoiding, how did it go?
Argh! You caught me! Yes, I was avoiding mentioning that part. OK, well bear in mind that it's a *very* different topic and I'm in therapy with a man... I stupidly developed an intense erotic transference. I needed to talk about it but I was so embarrassed. I said things like "I'll miss you" and "I like you" and "Sometimes I think I want you to rescue me". I hoped he would reply by asking me to talk more about my feelings for him. But he didn't. In fact he always changed the subject.
At first I was just confused. Then I thought it was something to do with his theoretical orientation (like in CBT the relationship is often de-emphasised). We did start talking about the relationship eventually, but he still seemed to avoid any intense feelings I expressed. So I thought he must find me repulsive and disgusting. After a very long time, and during a conversation in which he was apologising for forgetting to be at a previous appointment, I said it was confusing because I have feelings of anger for him but also feelings of love. He said nothing at all. His expression didn't even change. Then he changed the subject. I went home and did something very bad.
He didn't mention it again. And I was determined not to, but I really needed to. So six months later I was talking about finding therapy very difficult, and wanting to quit, and I said I couldn't quit because I love him. He responded by saying nothing and then changing the subject again.
I was astonished, hurt and very confused. The next week he did address it, but he asked lots of questions about my "perception of the specialness of the relationship" instead of asking about my feelings. I think he wanted to test me to find out whether I thought he had been seductive. Since I knew the correct answers, it was a bit pointless, and not very helpful.
We skirted around the subject for a few months, and I kept asking him to decide whether he could deal with it or whether he couldn't. He never really replied to that, but eventually, more than a year after I'd first told him, he said he thought things would be OK. That was the first response he'd given me that didn't make me want to destroy myself. It wasn't the sensitive response I'd hoped for at the beginning. It didn't give me much sense of security. But at least he seemed to have accepted my feelings and found a way to work with this material.
So I've been going very, very slowly. At the moment I'm waiting for him to be comfortable using the word 'love' to describe my feelings (instead of referring to my 'intense feelings' or my 'dependency'). Some time before we both die, I might even tell him about the erotic aspect of it!
Sorry... I've been wanting to tell the story for a while. So it got very long. Thanks for reading all this stuff.
But I'm certain that talking about maternal transference with a female therapist is not in the same category as my experience, and your therapist will not do what mine did. And there is at least a sort-of happy ending to my story, because we're still working well together and I'm still making progress. It's really amazing that therapeutic relationships can be so complicated and yet still be productive!
Posted by Annierose on September 5, 2008, at 11:53:30
In reply to Re: Maternal transference (oh so long post), posted by onceupon on September 5, 2008, at 9:01:31
>>>I'm curious if it feels like the struggle has shifted for you throughout your time in therapy.
I'm not sure what struggle you are referring to ... the one with my mother or the one with my therapist?I have a solid relationship with my therapist even though I go through different stages ... love, anger, boredom ... I've experienced it all. We continue to deepen the intimacy between us. It is an evolving relationship.
My mother is not capable of a mutually loving relationship. She is kind ... it's all surface ... nothing runs deep. She is not evil so sometimes its hard to admit being angry when in reality I'm full of anger.
Posted by lucie lu on September 5, 2008, at 15:19:45
In reply to Re: Maternal transference (oh so long post), posted by onceupon on September 5, 2008, at 9:12:03
Onceupon - I saw my T this morning too, and decided to do something about the elephant in the office... and I really didn't know how to begin. But I stumbled upon a new method of entering into difficult waters. I told him about responding to your and JayMac's posts about mothering. It was pretty easy for me to admit to feeling needy right now. But then he asked me what my responses to your posts were. I told him as much as I remembered. I laughingly tried to deflect any follow-up by saying that I don't follow my own advice. But he didn't go for my diversion and asked me how that advice applied to me. Funny but I was able to talk about some of the more difficult feelings by getting them out sideways like this, you know? And toward the end of the session, he pointed out that I came into the session sort of tense and shaky and that I was much more relaxed. It was one of the closest sessions we've had in a while. And although I knew there was more down there, we agreed it was a start. I did leave the session feeling better and also felt that the door had been opened for going further. The thing is that as much as I don't want to talk about some things, holding them in doesn't feel good either. Letting them out, or at least starting to, definitely felt good.My conclusion is that getting things across somehow in the third person can work if the first person is not ready to talk :)
Just thought I'd tell you that. Hope your session went well this morning. I'm interested in listening if you feel like talking.
Best, Lucie (not me, but her - LOL)
office - well, those I thought were my problem to bear alone. For quite a while, they were just something I never discussed, never even thought of discussing, and I was way too embarrassed about them to bring them up during the hour.
>
> Yeah, I feel the same way too. I do have other issues I'd like to be discussing in therapy :) but sometimes it's hard to focus on them when it feels like the big pink elephant is sitting in the middle of the room.
>
> > What broke the logjam for me was journaling, when I brought something in about the feelings he engendered in me. It was 3rd person, not like a Valentine or anything, written in journal style but it got the message across. He seemed really touched. After that, my longings, my loving feelings, my hurts (many seemed to me very childish but they really hurt all the same)all could be brought openly into therapy. It just took that one act to get things started. Maybe you can try something similar with your T.
>
> Thanks for the suggestion. I haven't even considered bringing my hurts into therapy, but they're there too. And you're right, they often feel childish, but excruciating all the same. I know I need to bring this up sooner or later, because it almost feels as if I can't get anything else productive done in therapy with this "secret" sitting heavy with me.
>
> > One of the surprises of therapy is that those longings that we try so hard to keep concealed and disowned are not side effects but actually the heart of the therapy. The longings represent places where we have been hurt. In therapy, those longings and other deep feelings should get taken out and, gently and carefully, examined to see where the hurt lies and how it might be repaired. So feeling bad and embarrassed for having those feelings is counter-productive as it serves to keep those deeper feelings hidden and out of the light of day and they can't be examined to help you
>
> > In short, try to accept the longings for what they are, accept that they are painful but they are also helpful in locating where the hurt is and what needs to be healed in you.
>
> Like a roadmap, almost, right? That's a really good way of looking at it. I think I'm at the point of working on acceptance. I've always wanted to disown those feelings, just not have them, but of course that just causes them to rear up all the more.
>
> > I hope you can talk with your T soon, it sounds like you are hurting and need to focus some work on healing in that area.
> >
> > Take care of yourself, and lots of hugs to you.
> > ((((((((((( Once ))))))))))))))
> >
> > Wishing you all the best, Lucie
>
> Thanks so much for your response and support, Lucie. I see my therapist this morning, and writing this post has helped me to feel a little more courage to bring up the topic. I doubt I'll get it all out, but even opening the door seems important at this point. Thanks for the hugs, too. They mean a lot :)
Posted by JayMac on September 5, 2008, at 23:54:56
In reply to Maternal transference (oh so long post), posted by onceupon on September 4, 2008, at 14:20:06
> I daydream about curling up on the couch with my head in her lap and feeling comforted. Especially as I'm falling asleep or just waking up.
Oh how I know the feeling....It can be sooooo overwhelming for me. I often imagine my T holding me. As I learn how to mother myself, it's comforting to know that she's there. She's constant. She cares. She's alive inside me.
>It's hard to describe how embarrassed this makes me feel (and how difficult it even is to write this down here). I feel young and needy and just kind of ridiculous sometimes. I mean, I am an adult, at least most of the time. I work, I'm a grad student, I'm a parent - I generally function in society from an outside perspective. But from the inside, I sometimes feel like I'm crumbling.
I understand your pain. I often feel the same way.
> I've tried to talk with my therapist about this (albeit in an indirect and hemming and hawing kind of way).
You need to talk about it.
> A part of what makes it difficult for me to talk about the idea of maternal transference with her is a judgment on my own part that I "shouldn't" feel these kinds of things.Actually, it's quite the opposite, you *should* be feeling these feelings. They are natural, they are healthy. It's ok to feel.
> That to feel such things flies in the face of my competence as an adult. Intellectually I know this isn't true, but my emotional self just doesn't get it. I worry that she'll think less of me/think I'm crazy/be annoyed with me/want to stop working with me, etc. It doesn't help that she is good friends with one of my coworkers (I had started seeing my therapist years before I started working at my current job. When I went back to my therapist after a several year break, I had just started a new job and my therapist told me about her friendship). I trust her to remain professional, but it's just a little unsettling to be confronted with that small degree of separation between my professional and therapy lives.
>
> So, to sum up this already too long post: I want so badly to be mothered, want to resolve this issue of wanting so badly to feel mothered, and have a hell of a time talking about it in therapy.
It's best that you work up the courage to tell her in therapy. From what you are saying, I feel it would be helpful for you to first write what you want to say to her *as if* you are actually speaking with her. It's something that I do, that I have found to be extremely helpful.Just write and write and write. Write as much as you want to say to her. Don't worry about what's thinking. HER thoughts should not get in the way of doing therapy with YOU. You are the client/patient. She is there to fulfill YOUR needs. I know it's a difficult concept to grasp, but let her fulfill your needs.
Hugs and blessings,
Jay
Posted by JayMac on September 6, 2008, at 0:10:18
In reply to Re: Maternal transference (oh so long post) - Once » onceupon, posted by lucie lu on September 5, 2008, at 15:19:45
> And toward the end of the session, he pointed out that I came into the session sort of tense and shaky and that I was much more relaxed. It was one of the closest sessions we've had in a while. And although I knew there was more down there, we agreed it was a start.That's sooooo great!
>I did leave the session feeling better and also felt that the door had been opened for going further. The thing is that as much as I don't want to talk about some things, holding them in doesn't feel good either. Letting them out, or at least starting to, definitely felt good.
It does feel good! It feels great! Plus, the more you bring these things out into the *open,* the better you will continue to feel. It's the attempt to try to diminish and repress these feelings that lead to anxiety. I'm soooooo incredibly glad that you were able to bring these things into therapy with you. What wonderful progress!!
Peace,
Jay
Posted by onceupon on September 6, 2008, at 12:41:30
In reply to Re: Maternal transference (oh so long post) » onceupon, posted by raisinb on September 5, 2008, at 10:13:58
> Oh, how this resonates with me! A few months after I started seeing mine, I'd have fantasies of just being held for my entire session. Intense ones that I couldn't stop.
Sometimes this feels like the hardest part - not being able to stop it. Feeling compelled.
>It is very painful, and yes, it feels like something you *shouldn't* feel as an adult. I found it much easier to talk about sexual transference than this, which just seemed out of bounds, totally inappropriate.
I'm amazed you were able to talk about this!
>I worried I'd repulse her, make her uncomfortable, ruin our relationship. Which added a whole other level of pain to the already painful feelings of needing to be mothered.
Yeah, you're right. Worrying about the effects of my needs on others has always added extra pain to the mix. Even though others have told me it's OK to have needs, everyone has them, it's still hard for me to absorb that that includes *me*
> I'd never have brought it up with my therapist unless her pregnancy had brought it to a crisis point. I should've known--she was just as sympathetic and concerned as she's always been. We haven't talked about it again, but I feel so much better now that she knows. It's possible this was my most shameful secret I kept from her.My therapist was pregnant too, just as I was leaving therapy the first time. She told me in what was planned as our second to last session. It was excruciating to hear, not only from the standpoint of having to imagine her as a new mother, but also because I was aching to have children at that point too. Shame is a funny thing, isn't it? What might seem innocuous to an outsider can feel overwhelmingly threatening on the inside.
> So, in the first place, you're not alone. Second, when you're so ashamed of your feelings, it's easy to be absolutely convinced that others feel the same way. But try to have faith that your therapist does not. Dropping the discussion could be for a variety of reason, possibly including a) she senses what you're struggling with, but worries you, or the relationship, aren't ready to deal with such painful material, and she wants to get the two of you to a more solid place before going there, b) she senses your discomfort and does not want to push you, c) she's clueless and simply thinking about something else at the moment.I know I project a lot of feelings onto others. I can be so convincing to myself in arguing that others feel the same as I do :) Thanks for offering some alternate possibilities for her dropping the topic (or appearing to). I think option b is probably the most accurate - she has never really pushed me, and reiterates from time to time that it's important to take things at my own pace. Maybe it's time for me to pick up the pace a little.
> Sometimes I felt I was walking around with a sign saying, "I want you to be my mommy! Can I climb into your lap?" But in reality, I was very good at hiding it. And I bet you are too. You might be overcompensating, acting highly independent, even standoffish, just because you're trying to offset those feelings. And therapists aren't psychic (even though it might be nice if they were).
I feel like I wear that sign too :) And yeah, I also try like hell to hide it. The overcompensating thing really resonated with me. One of the things that we've discussed multiple times in the past is the balance between independence and interdependence. Growing up, I felt like totally and complete self-reliance was the only way to survive. But then I was left with the echoes of wanting the appropriate dependence that I never got.
> Your therapist has probably dealt with this stuff before. And if she truly is made uncomfortable by it, she's not the one for you to work it through with. But I doubt that's the case, honestly. Try to keep talking about it, if you can. The most painful things are often absolutely the most important.
Yeah, I don't think she would be made uncomfortable by any of it, but I do wonder whether she has had training in dealing with it. Guess there's only one way to find out! Thanks for your input and support - I really appreciate hearing alternate perspectives.
Posted by onceupon on September 6, 2008, at 12:55:13
In reply to Transference Confessions: The Saga » onceupon, posted by Tamar on September 5, 2008, at 11:05:48
> Argh! You caught me! Yes, I was avoiding mentioning that part.
:)
>OK, well bear in mind that it's a *very* different topic and I'm in therapy with a man... I stupidly developed an intense erotic transference. I needed to talk about it but I was so embarrassed. I said things like "I'll miss you" and "I like you" and "Sometimes I think I want you to rescue me". I hoped he would reply by asking me to talk more about my feelings for him. But he didn't. In fact he always changed the subject.
First of all, I can't imagine that it was stupidity that drove you towards developing the erotic transference :) And second, your description of how you brought up the topic and hope that he would ask for more REALLY rings a bell for me. I'm not the best at stating things directly, in any area of my life, and in this circumstance, it sometimes feels impossible. I'm sorry he always changed the subject. That sounds really painful.
> At first I was just confused. Then I thought it was something to do with his theoretical orientation (like in CBT the relationship is often de-emphasised). We did start talking about the relationship eventually, but he still seemed to avoid any intense feelings I expressed. So I thought he must find me repulsive and disgusting. After a very long time, and during a conversation in which he was apologising for forgetting to be at a previous appointment, I said it was confusing because I have feelings of anger for him but also feelings of love. He said nothing at all. His expression didn't even change. Then he changed the subject. I went home and did something very bad.Oh my. What an awful experience. I understand the leap to thinking that your therapist must find you repulsive. Been there, done that. It's so damned hard to have an accurate picture of what the therapist is thinking/feeling, because IME, a) they don't seem to ever talk very directly about it, b) having very clear hopes of what I *want* her to be thinking/feeling often clouds what I see, because I tend to see the opposite of what I hope and c) the name of the transference game is seeing things in a distorted way (usually). Not sure if that made sense, but essentially, ouch. How could he say nothing at all?! I think I would have crawled under the couch at that point, or fled.
> He didn't mention it again. And I was determined not to, but I really needed to. So six months later I was talking about finding therapy very difficult, and wanting to quit, and I said I couldn't quit because I love him. He responded by saying nothing and then changing the subject again.OMG.
> I was astonished, hurt and very confused. The next week he did address it, but he asked lots of questions about my "perception of the specialness of the relationship" instead of asking about my feelings. I think he wanted to test me to find out whether I thought he had been seductive. Since I knew the correct answers, it was a bit pointless, and not very helpful.
Argh. You used the word "love" and he couldn't use it back (to describe your feelings). If it had been me, I would have wanted to punch him, but what I would have done would be to beat up on myself.
> We skirted around the subject for a few months, and I kept asking him to decide whether he could deal with it or whether he couldn't. He never really replied to that, but eventually, more than a year after I'd first told him, he said he thought things would be OK. That was the first response he'd given me that didn't make me want to destroy myself. It wasn't the sensitive response I'd hoped for at the beginning. It didn't give me much sense of security. But at least he seemed to have accepted my feelings and found a way to work with this material.I'm impressed by your strength and persistence at fighting to discuss this. His ongoing insensitivity/blindness/ignorance/not sure what makes me wonder whether he wasn't also attracted to you and, rather than being unable to tolerate your feelings, he was unable to tolerate his own.
> So I've been going very, very slowly. At the moment I'm waiting for him to be comfortable using the word 'love' to describe my feelings (instead of referring to my 'intense feelings' or my 'dependency'). Some time before we both die, I might even tell him about the erotic aspect of it!
I'm sorry that it's taking him so long to feel comfortable with the word 'love.' Has he ever said 'love?' Because, wow, love and 'intense feelings' or worse, 'dependency' are totally different.
> Sorry... I've been wanting to tell the story for a while. So it got very long. Thanks for reading all this stuff.I'm so glad that you shared it. And sorry that it's been such an intense and likely painful journey for you. Anything to decrease the isolation that I (and it seems others) feel around this topic seems like a good thing.
> But I'm certain that talking about maternal transference with a female therapist is not in the same category as my experience, and your therapist will not do what mine did. And there is at least a sort-of happy ending to my story, because we're still working well together and I'm still making progress. It's really amazing that therapeutic relationships can be so complicated and yet still be productive!
It is amazing, isn't it? Strange sometimes too, but that's another story!
>
>
Posted by onceupon on September 6, 2008, at 12:58:00
In reply to Re: Maternal transference (oh so long post) » onceupon, posted by Annierose on September 5, 2008, at 11:53:30
> I'm not sure what struggle you are referring to ... the one with my mother or the one with my therapist?I think I meant the struggle with your mother, but it's interesting to hear about the evolution of your relationship with your therapist.
> My mother is not capable of a mutually loving relationship. She is kind ... it's all surface ... nothing runs deep. She is not evil so sometimes its hard to admit being angry when in reality I'm full of anger.This is harder than if she were evil, isn't it? I think things with my mom are similar. My husband sees her as someone completely different from who I see, which is to be expected I guess. But it's disorienting to feel like I shouldn't be angry, since others don't see those same qualities.
Posted by onceupon on September 6, 2008, at 13:01:52
In reply to Re: Maternal transference (oh so long post) - Once » onceupon, posted by lucie lu on September 5, 2008, at 15:19:45
I'm so glad to hear you were able to get some of it out! I like your tactic too. You're right, sometimes the first person balks, but in the third person, it feels much different.
And I'm also glad to hear that you felt better afterwards. You're right that holding it in can be so much more destructive than getting it out (usually this is the case for me).
Thanks again for your support and for sharing your story. I plan to post about my meeting with my therapist later, but gotta get some "real" work done first :)
Posted by onceupon on September 6, 2008, at 13:05:52
In reply to Re: Maternal transference (oh so long post), posted by JayMac on September 5, 2008, at 23:54:56
> Oh how I know the feeling....It can be sooooo overwhelming for me. I often imagine my T holding me. As I learn how to mother myself, it's comforting to know that she's there. She's constant. She cares. She's alive inside me.It's funny how overwhelming it can feel, isn't it? For me at least. The rational part of me thinks that imagining such a thing should be comforting, since I generally find my therapist to be a compassionate person. But the ache of what was missed sometimes overrides it all.
I'd be curious to hear more about the process of learning to mother yourself. This is something I think about a lot in theory, but I'm not quite sure how to put it into practice.
> Actually, it's quite the opposite, you *should* be feeling these feelings. They are natural, they are healthy. It's ok to feel.You're right that I need to talk about it. It's starting to feel like it will destroy me if I don't. Thanks for the reassurance about feelings - something I'm trying hard to accept.
> It's best that you work up the courage to tell her in therapy. From what you are saying, I feel it would be helpful for you to first write what you want to say to her *as if* you are actually speaking with her. It's something that I do, that I have found to be extremely helpful.
>
> Just write and write and write. Write as much as you want to say to her. Don't worry about what's thinking. HER thoughts should not get in the way of doing therapy with YOU. You are the client/patient. She is there to fulfill YOUR needs. I know it's a difficult concept to grasp, but let her fulfill your needs.I like the idea of writing as if I were talking to her. I think I get stuck in the rut of trying to figure everything out when I start writing, so I just get stuck.
> Hugs and blessings,
> JayThanks :)
>
Posted by meme3842 on September 6, 2008, at 19:40:53
In reply to Maternal transference (oh so long post), posted by onceupon on September 4, 2008, at 14:20:06
I've been reading this thread the past couple of days, and I've found it so interesting, because I've never encountered anyone who has such strong maternal transference as I did. It only happens with some people, though. My current therapist, not so much. But my previous therpaist, I really wanted her to take me home with her. And I did end up telling her that, because it was starting to drive me crazy. But talking about it kind of turned be be a double-edged sword. On one hand, it was nice to get off my chest, to tell her that I wished she would tuck me in at night, and be there. On the other hand, it increased the longing and the therapy became entirely about my longing for a mother, particularly her. To me, it's embarrassing, because sometimes, it gets in the way of life. And I wish I could get over it, not feel it anymore. I have been talking about it my current therapist, but it's not helping that much. Sometimes it's just easier to ignore the feeling so I don't get overwhelmed by the wanting. That's probably what I've been doing lately. It is comforting, though, to know that it I'm not the only who has had strong attachment feelings to my therapist or anyone that could be preceived as a "mother."
This is the end of the thread.
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