![[dr. bob]](/dr-bob-sm.gif)
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 17 of 17. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by pegasus on April 25, 2011, at 17:05:09
A question has come up in my sessions lately: Why does it matter so much to me whether my T likes me and cares about me. (With a sub-question: Is liking and caring about someone the same thing?)
When this was posed to me, my answer was, "Uh . . . well, I would just feel awful working with someone who didn't like me." And I haven't gotten any further with it since then.
Why would that feel so awful? Is this a universal thing? I mean, do you all share this need to be liked by your T? And exactly how much do they need to like us, for it to be OK? Is an off-handed, more-or-less liking enough? I think not, for me, but I can't say why.
Does anyone have any thoughts about this that are better formed than mine?
- P
Posted by wittgensteinz on April 25, 2011, at 18:17:00
In reply to Why do we want our Ts to like us?, posted by pegasus on April 25, 2011, at 17:05:09
Yes, I feel much the same.
When I think of caring I think of both professional caring (the therapist's professional obligation/requirement to listen/be engaged) and personal caring, i.e. caring because the patient personally matters to the therapist.
While I would like both, this desire is ambivalent insofar as I wouldn't want his personal caring to interfere with the therapy and the boundaries between us. I wouldn't want him interfering too much in my life.
For me the need to be liked by my therapist is related to a need to be valued, respected and understood - for him to feel empathy toward me. Maybe all these things are still possible even if the therapist doesn't particularly like the client/patient - but could empathy be genuine under those circumstances? I imagine negative feelings could get in the way of that.
It's much easier to live with the idea of opening up in such an intimate way with another human being when you feel that that person likes you. Being the 'patient' is a very vulnerable position to be in. Safety and trust are nurtured in the presence of someone caring and warm. When I tell my story, I want him to be at my side like an ally - not an enemy.
I'm sure liking and caring are closely intertwined - certainly caring on a personal level. The "what does it mean for you to care?" question has come up a number of times in my therapy. He's said a couple of times in frustration "I'm not a robot!" but his 'not being a robot' isn't enough for me. Realistically I think in order to do the work we do we both have to find one another sympathetic - there has to be a click in order for a trusting relationship to develop. That said there are times when we don't see eye to eye and I'm sure some things about me annoy him, just as some things about him irritate me - but overall I feel there is a mutual warmth between us and I think that's necessary.
An after-thought: In a way our T's see us in our purest form - don't they take on in that sense a deistic status as the ultimate judge? Might it not be a matter of "if he doesn't like me, then I must just be an unlikeable person per se" - it would feel like the ultimate rejection. I mean, if someone who knows me casually doesn't like me, then maybe they just didn't get the right impression. But if someone gets to see me through and through, if I learn to trust him like a father, if I respect his opinions deeply and if that person has a calm and semi-objective vantage point then surely his judgment of me and my character has far more weight than pretty much anyone else? If that person judges me unsympathetically there's not much left to say. Isn't that the basis of the need?
Witti
Posted by sleepygirl2 on April 25, 2011, at 20:07:01
In reply to Why do we want our Ts to like us?, posted by pegasus on April 25, 2011, at 17:05:09
Because if my t "knows" me, and he doesn't like me, well, I guess I haven't got much chance of having other people know me. It isn't worth the risk.
Big topic, small and incomplete answer. ;-)
Posted by lola2 on April 26, 2011, at 5:43:31
In reply to Why do we want our Ts to like us?, posted by pegasus on April 25, 2011, at 17:05:09
> A question has come up in my sessions lately: Why does it matter so much to me whether my T likes me and cares about me. (With a sub-question: Is liking and caring about someone the same thing?)
i think that if you like a person you will automatically have care for them.>
> When this was posed to me, my answer was, "Uh . . . well, I would just feel awful working with someone who didn't like me." And I haven't gotten any further with it since then.
>
> Why would that feel so awful? Is this a universal thing? I mean, do you all share this need to be liked by your T? And exactly how much do they need to like us, for it to be OK? Is an off-handed, more-or-less liking enough? I think not, for me, but I can't say why.
>ive never thought about whether my t likes me or not, i guess i just assume he does. if he didn't like me i would be able to tell and would get a new one.
> Does anyone have any thoughts about this that are better formed than mine?
>
> - Pits so important that they like you, if a t didn't like their client they wouldn't be able to be gueniune, thats crucial in therapy. also the client could tell. if you feel a connection, feel a guenuineness from your t than i wouldnt worry about it. but it might go deeper for you than just your t liking you. maybe the issue is deeper rooted?
Posted by Daisym on April 27, 2011, at 0:56:27
In reply to Why do we want our Ts to like us?, posted by pegasus on April 25, 2011, at 17:05:09
Having had this discussion multiple times in my own therapy, I hear my therapist saying, "Who doesn't want to be liked and cared about?" I think this is part of the human condition - most of us want to be likable people and have people who are important to us, like us and care about us. It is "how we are made" - if you will. There is nothing pathological about wanting those things. Are you hoping to make yourself not want him to like you or to not care if he cares? More fruitful questions might be, "what would you do to "make" your therapist like you - or what do you think you need to do?" Do you have to be perfect or do you hold things back? Why wouldn't he like you? Do you need everyone to like you?
I would argue that people who say, "I don't care what he/she thinks about me" either aren't being truthful or this is, at least in part, why they are in therapy. People who care about what other people think tend to be more sensitive and considerate of other people. I'm not talking about severe fawning to get people to like you or being fake, etc. But nice people usually get treated nicely.
Therapy needs to be a safe place in which to explore the dark and scary sides of ourselves. We need a safe base from which to venture and I can't imagine feeling safe with someone who doesn't like you. And when we care about someone, it is normal to want them to care back. It means we matter to them and they won't disregard our feelings and attachments in such a way that is hurtful to us. Again, I think we worry that we aren't supposed to want our therapists to care - or at least not too much - but I think that wanting this, and taking in the liking and caring, is actually healthy.
Posted by Dinah on April 28, 2011, at 8:00:49
In reply to Re: Why do we want our Ts to like us? » pegasus, posted by Daisym on April 27, 2011, at 0:56:27
I think Daisy has a really good point. It does feel safer to be with people who like you, particularly in such intimate circumstances.
And, as she says, there's nothing pathological about that. I would think a therapist ought to be more concerned, in long term therapy, about a client who doesn't care if they are liked or not.
Of course the ideal is to be exactly who we are deep down and still be liked. To be liked unconditionally. If we have to pretend to be someone else to be liked, who is it who is being liked? Yet who of us, when we're totally being ourselves, is entirely likeable? Maybe when we really feel safe enough, we can settle for being liked much of the time, and occasionally being loved (or cared about) even when we aren't being particularly likeable. It's not easy to feel that safe.
Posted by pegasus on April 28, 2011, at 8:58:03
In reply to Why do we want our Ts to like us?, posted by pegasus on April 25, 2011, at 17:05:09
Yes, of course, we all want to be liked, especially when we're taking the big risk of exposing our most vulnerable parts. Why is that confusing to me? Probably because my T brought it up. Now, I'm wondering why in the world he would ask such a question.
Maybe this will lead to an interesting conversation.
- Peg
Posted by Tabitha on May 2, 2011, at 2:54:24
In reply to Why do we want our Ts to like us?, posted by pegasus on April 25, 2011, at 17:05:09
I don't want my therapist to like me. Why on earth would she? She doesn't know me except for what I present in therapy-- which is almost entirely complaining, misery, and suffering. And a lot of desperation. That's not likable. I assume whatever motivation she has to keep listening to me comes from something very different than a feeling of personally liking me.
Posted by Dinah on May 2, 2011, at 7:07:15
In reply to Re: Why do we want our Ts to like us?, posted by Tabitha on May 2, 2011, at 2:54:24
Well, I'm not sure that even if you are *always* complaining, miserable, suffering, and desperate when you're with her, that that necessarily makes you unlikeable. Maybe not the best companion for a night on the town, but not unlikeable. :)
But even the best of us surely have moments when we're unlikeable. Selfish, shrewish, mulish, unkind, sulky, ungrateful. If not towards our therapist then towards *someone*.
Those may be the times when we're recipients of the grace of being loved - by whatever name - even when we aren't necessarily, at the moment, liked.
Do you think your current feelings about therapy might be influencing your thoughts?
Although, I must say, if she hasn't given you the sense after all these years that she likes you, at the core, then maybe she's doing more harm than good. What a message for a therapist to send! In particular moments, being loved without being liked is a grace. If unending, I tend to think it's corrosive.
Posted by Dinah on May 2, 2011, at 7:18:58
In reply to Re: Why do we want our Ts to like us?, posted by pegasus on April 28, 2011, at 8:58:03
I hope it does lead to an interesting conversation. When do you see him?
I think context may be important in this topic. In general I can't imagine why such a natural wish would be an issue, or even why it wouldn't be taken for granted.
In context, is it possible that he meant your desire to be liked was influencing your behavior within the relationship, and compromising therapeutic effectiveness? I can see where wanting to be liked could lead to hiding or reframing the more negative aspects of ourselves. I've heard people talk about not wanting to tell their therapist something for fear of having the therapist think badly of them. Or of putting their best face on in therapy. I always think that's sort of counterproductive in therapy. Not least because the being who is supposedly being "liked" is not the real person.
I think I've always demanded to be accepted or rejected by my therapist for my most authentic self. Maybe he's the one who sees that self more than anyone else. He also may be the only person who likes that self. Maybe not to bring home, but at least in the confines of therapy.
Except for my dogs, God bless 'em. And maybe my father. Maybe.
Posted by Tabitha on May 3, 2011, at 1:23:27
In reply to Re: Why do we want our Ts to like us? » Tabitha, posted by Dinah on May 2, 2011, at 7:07:15
You know Dinah, I had to read this a couple times to even comprehend it at all. It's like you're coming at it from some angle that's alien to me. I know I'm the oddball on this topic. I think you were trying to comfort me, out of a belief it must be painful to not feel liked by my therapist? I'm not sure.
Maybe I'm just not using the same definition of like as everyone. I take 'like' to mean truly enjoying someone's company.
Anyway, I'm going to blather on about this just for the enjoyment of comparing & contrasting views and trying to sort it out for myself. Pegasus, I hope this doesn't feel like a thread hijack. I can't decide if it should be a new thread or not.
I just don't think it's a problem that I haven't gotten a message that my therapist likes me. I don't think she loves me either, and that also doesn't seem like a problem. I think I'd be a bit disturbed to know her personal feelings toward me! Sort of how I don't really want to know my music teacher's personal feelings about listening to my amateur efforts.
I think she feels compassion for me and she's committed to supporting me. This seems exactly right to me as her feelings, even though I can't understand how she avoids compassion-fatigue.
I've certainly suffered pain over wondering if someone likes me or not. I got quite upset recently when thinking that an old friend whom I idolize perhaps wasn't enjoying our friendship so much, and was keeping it up out of some sense of duty or an abstract idea that longevity=value. This was a big drama/crisis for me and dragged me down for weeks. The humiliation aspect was big there, that I'd been just misreading him and delusional about things. I just don't project this type of longing into my therapy. (I made the same assumption about that case that I make about my lack of likability in therapy-- that I'd been presenting too much sad sack & victim when we talk and had just become unlikable as a result.)
When you talked about being loved without being likable being a form of grace, I realized I see it the opposite way. I think there are people who can love anyone out of a sense of compassion or romantic illusion or just determination. Being loving is so highly valued in this culture! People are motivated to develop that.
I'm more inclined to suspect grace is operating when someone likes me. The reason being, I'm just so significantly unhappy and unfailingly see the negative. I believe it's just really hard to like someone who's unhappy and negative. It's difficult to feel good around them. Moods are contagious. And how can you really like someone you don't feel good around?
As a counterpoint, I have one friend who's quite unhappy, but I manage to enjoy his wit and black humor in spite of it. But I do need to limit the time spent around him or I get dragged down into a worse mood myself. So that's kind of one saving aspect for me I think, that people that enjoy that sort of thing are better able to enjoy being around me. But my therapist doesn't value wit and black humor, so that's not going to be operating there. If anything it's probably off-putting since she values emotional expression & honesty, and humor is always a bit of a dodge, isn't it?
Posted by Dinah on May 3, 2011, at 7:39:49
In reply to Re: Why do I not want my T to like me? » Dinah, posted by Tabitha on May 3, 2011, at 1:23:27
Well, the thing about grace is that in order to be grace, it has to be unearned. :)
Although, conversely, I'm very aware of *overall* earning my therapist's positive feelings.
Hmmmm....
I think perhaps we do have different definitions of "like". I'd say your "like" was more like my "enjoy". I'm under no illusion that my therapist would want to go out with me for a beer and a movie. He thinks I'm a bit odd, and I know that he thinks me somewhat lacking in humor. Which I am, in some ways, I suppose. And of course he seems to find me boring. Which I suppose I also can be. I do tend to drone on and on.
I think of like as more like having positive feelings for, finding something valuable and special about that person. Looking forward to spending time around them, though not necessarily tons of time. I find myself liking people who are decent and kind, but not necessarily brilliant or funny. And I don't always like people I might find hilarious, if they are insensitive or unkind to others. Although, depending on the sort of unkind they are, I *might* like them. Over time, I can grow to like someone I initially detest or to dislike someone I previously liked, without at all changing my mind about how enjoyable or trying their company might be.
Liking might come, for me, with empathy and understanding. Or by observing kindnesses to myself or others. I might easily dislike someone who appears a pompous windbag or a happy morning person, for example. In part because of my previous experiences in life. But if I see the windbag offer a gruff kindess, or the happy morning person gaze wistfully after a child, or if I spend enough time with either, I'm likely to end up liking them quite well.
Although, on the other hand, I dislike most mental health practitioners, so maybe I find people easier to like when they don't have me in their power and I am in a position to stay more disinterested. :)
Are you perhaps feeling depressed and down on yourself right now, Tabitha? I find it hard to believe that over the years you have presented one uniform face to your therapist. If you have, I might tend to blame your therapist rather than you. I think it would be very hard not to like, or even love, someone you've known for years and who has been vulnerable in your presence.
And, in addition, I've found you both likeable and loveable in the time I have known you. Moreover, I don't recall having to take any time to grow to like you.
Hmmmm.... Again, it might be a difference in definitions. One of the first things I discussed with my therapist was that I felt like my husband loved me dearly, and enjoyed my company. But felt doubtful that he *liked* me.
On the other hand, I'm quite sure that my therapist likes me. (I do keep referring to him that way. I'm glad.) But he's as much as told me that he likes me best at no more than two hours a week - not in those words of course. :)
Maybe this is something you could discuss with your therapist. Not only to ask how she feels about you, but to talk about your expectations of how others see you.
On the other hand, at this stage in our talking about our therapists, I almost feel like saying you should talk to *my* therapist about these things. For all his many, many flaws, I'm beginning to think he offers something that your therapist doesn't.
Posted by pegasus on May 3, 2011, at 9:43:23
In reply to Re: Why do I not want my T to like me? » Dinah, posted by Tabitha on May 3, 2011, at 1:23:27
No worries about hijacking, Tabitha. I think you're adding something interesting to this discussion. Interesting, and kind of mind boggling to me. Probably like Dinah's post was mind boggling to you. It's good food for thought.
I also am interested in Dinah's distinction between liking and enjoying. It makes me think of a professor I had who was hilarious, and I thoroughly enjoyed spending time in his class. We would laugh and laugh, and I looked forward to each time I'd experience him. But I didn't really like him much, because his humor could be mean, and he tended to be too critical and not supportive enough of the students, and I could never make sense of his advice.
I think the issue for my therapy is probably more along the lines of what I do in therapy to be liked, since that's so important to me. I'm not good at bringing in things I'm ashamed of (which are many), and I do try to adjust myself to be the sort of person my T might like. Although, he says that we have so much in common that it's kind of pointless to do that (not in those words). Meaning that we don't have to look hard to find common ground, if that's what I'm trying to do.
I see him today. I'll let you know what comes of this discussion then.
- P
Posted by Tabitha on May 4, 2011, at 1:00:53
In reply to Re: Why do I not want my T to like me?, posted by pegasus on May 3, 2011, at 9:43:23
Dinah & pegasus, you've both given me more to think about. Thanks! Engaging & thought provoking conversation is pretty rare in my life nowadays.
Posted by pegasus on May 4, 2011, at 9:11:13
In reply to Re: Why do I not want my T to like me?, posted by pegasus on May 3, 2011, at 9:43:23
I saw my T yesterday, and brought up this issue. But before that, I'd started talking about being raised in a devoutly religious family. One thing that I carry around from that experience is a fear of being judged. That has been abundantly expressed in my therapy before this. So, we agreed that to talk about difficult things, it's human nature to want an environment that is supportive and caring. He added, "And not judgmental or condemnatory." Which is exactly right. Being not liked would feel like being harshly judged, which connects for me to concepts of sin and punishment and shame and being fundamentally not OK (original sin).
No wonder I've struggled with SI.
I've never worked on this stuff in therapy, and I'm kind of excited to be going there. It's so core to who I am, for one thing. And this conversation makes it seem more possible to bring up some things that I'm ashamed of, from the time after I became less religious, and was sort of morally adrift. I have not really worked on most of that stuff either.
So, maybe it wasn't such a hard question. But it has led to an interesting place in my therapy.
- p
Posted by Dinah on May 4, 2011, at 20:23:31
In reply to not what I expected, posted by pegasus on May 4, 2011, at 9:11:13
Good for you!! Sometimes sessions go in the most interesting directions. :)
Posted by emmanuel98 on May 19, 2011, at 19:55:54
In reply to Re: Why do we want our Ts to like us? » pegasus, posted by Dinah on May 2, 2011, at 7:18:58
It mattered to me A LOT that my T liked me and I was constantly asking him this. He said he liked all his patients. That if he didn't like a patient, he couldn't work with them. So how does that work, I asked him, if you dislike someone? Do you tell them. He said he could tell within a few sessions if the relationship wouldn't work and would just tell the patient that -- this isn't a good fit.
After six years of seeing him, I feel quite confident that my T (who is also my p-doc) likes me, cares about me, feels compassion for me and even loves me in a way. It would be horrible to me if he didn't -- after all, he knows me better than anyone except my husband and I spill my guts to him week after week. If he didn't have genuine positive feelings for me, I would want to kill myself.
Most therapy textbooks say that the therapist's job is to provide genuine positive regard for a patient and if they can't do that, they can't do therapy with that patient. It's the genuine positive regard that allows patients to trust and feel cared for and experience a corrective emotional experience that they did not get with their own parents (typically -- that was certainly the case for me).
Of course, I suppose there are people who see therapists not to correct damaged relationships and self-image due to childhood abuse or neglect, but just want to bounce ideas and emotions off someone and are willing to pay for the priveledge.
This is the end of the thread.
Psycho-Babble Psychology | Extras | FAQ
Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.org
Script revised: February 4, 2008
URL: http://www.dr-bob.org/cgi-bin/pb/mget.pl
Copyright 2006-17 Robert Hsiung.
Owned and operated by Dr. Bob LLC and not the University of Chicago.